From: vinay singh
Sent: 14 September 2010 09:58
Subject: GEN NATHU SINGH
Dear Brigadier Kamboj,
Thank you for posting Sarojini Naidu’s letter to Nathu Singh. Here is something else on the same lines, which is as relevant today as it was then. In January 1948, soon after taking over as GOC UP Area in Lucknow, Gen Nathu Singh wrote an Appreciation on the Defence of India, and forwarded it to Army HQ. He was greatly perturbed by a directive issued from the office of the C-in-C, which sought to reduce the size of the Regular Army to 150,000 - during World War II, it had risen to 2.5 million - with an annual budget allocation of 45 crore rupees for the next three years.
In the preamble, he wrote:
"We as soldiers must approach our leaders and submit our minimum requirements and make it clear that if funds are not provided for such a force, the responsibility will be upon them. A soldier is but a servant of the State. He must however, point out any weaknesses in the defensive structure of the country with all the emphasis at his command. In order to arrive at a correct appreciation, we must consider both military and allied factors and not be swayed by any notions of idealism or allow political considerations to affect our judgment...
A NEWLY CREATED NATION WHICH HAS ONLY JUST THROWN OFF HER BONDAGE OF FOREIGN RULE OF 200 YEARS AND MORE CANNOT RISK A REVERSE ALMOST AT HER REBIRTH.
...We must NOT decide on the size of our Defence Service on what we can financially afford but on what we need in the form of a Modern Defence based on the following considerations:
(a) What is the strength and armament of present and potential enemies of India?
(b) What is the force required by India to meet this threat
(c) What will be the cost of maintaining such a force?
(d) What is the maximum amount the country can afford to pay for its Defence Forces?
(e) To arrive at a compromise between (b), (c) and (do above, consistent with the safety of our land.
Keeping the above in view, the Land Forces which India should maintain are given in the enclosed appreciation. They are only my first thoughts."
Nathu Singh proceeded to list out the frame work of the Indian Army, for the future. By present standards, he was extremely conservative - he asked for one corps headquarters, one armoured division, two infantry divisions, one parachute brigade, one armoured brigade, and the associated complement of Artillery, Engineers and Signals. The number of infantry battalions was only 28. However, he advocated a large complement of territorial army, which would provide the second line of defence, and boost the resources of the regular army, during war.
In April 1948, Nathu Singh was promoted to the rank of Lt Gen and appointed GOC-in-C Eastern Command, at Ranchi. He continued his efforts to convince the political and military leadership of the necessity of maintaining a strong Army. When asked for a run-down of the Army, he wrote to Army HQ on 24 October 1950:
"...The situation facing the country from the military point of view is today virtually the same if not worse because, although Pakistan outwardly appears to be fraternising with our country, recent speeches of their leaders leave no room for doubt that they are preparing for a show-down with our country over the KASHMIR issue.
...Communist China's complete success over the KUOMINTANG and the establishment of the Peoples' Government, their recent activities, their declared policy towards liberation of Tibet, and the recent Mission from the latter country clearly indicate the writing on the wall. The Communist menace is gradually spreading towards the very borders of India.
...To ensure the security of our borders and our State, the Defence service ratio between INDIA and PAKISTAN should be two to one . If this is reduced, we will be laying our country open to an ever present danger of a major war."
Nathu Singh's remarks, especially with reference to Pakistan and China, display an insight of international affairs which very few Indians had, at that time. Even Nehru, who orchestrated India's foreign policy for almost two decades following Independence, failed to grasp the nuances which Nathu Singh had perceived. As a result, the Defence Forces were neglected, with disastrous results in 1962. An intimate knowledge of military affairs is important for those who decide the fate of peoples, and nations. Among his contemporaries, such as Churchill, Stalin, Chiang Kai Shek, Roosevelt, Eisenhower, Tito, and Nasser, Nehru was one of the few who had never worn an uniform.
This applies even to our present day political masters. Not one of our Prime Ministers or Defence Ministers, from 1947 till now, has ever worn an uniform.
Maj Gen VK Singh
Tuesday, September 21, 2010
ESM CSD CANTEEN AT VIJAY NAGAR, GHAZIABAD - CLOSURE HJALTED
ESM CSD CANTEEN AT VIJAY NAGAR, GHAZIABAD - CLOSURE HALTED
Dear Friends,
Jai Hind.
The closure of the ESM CSD Canteen at Vijay Nagar Ghaziabad (UP), has been halted.
The DO letter received from present Army Commander Central Command, Gen VK Ahluwalia, is as above.
On behalf of YOU ALL, ‘i’ thank Gen Ahluwalia and Gen Sharma for stopping the closure of the said ESM CSD Canteen.
JAI HO IESM.
In service of Indian Military Veterans
Chander Kamboj.
Dear Friends,
Jai Hind.
The closure of the ESM CSD Canteen at Vijay Nagar Ghaziabad (UP), has been halted.
The DO letter received from present Army Commander Central Command, Gen VK Ahluwalia, is as above.
On behalf of YOU ALL, ‘i’ thank Gen Ahluwalia and Gen Sharma for stopping the closure of the said ESM CSD Canteen.
JAI HO IESM.
In service of Indian Military Veterans
Chander Kamboj.
Tuesday, September 14, 2010
Letter to Brakha by RDOA
From: RDOA India [mailto:rdoaindia@gmail.com]
Sent: 14 September 2010 00:07
To: barkha@ndtv.com; feedback@ndtv.com
Cc: DELETED
Subject: NDTV PGMME ON OROP
Dear Barkha,
The views of RDOA follow:
The NDTV telecast on OROP was a big ‘Façade’ missing the main objective of ‘One Rank One Pension’. The debate spiraled to a tangent to issues like honour, izzat, compensation package, disability pension, to downgrading of armed forces to the level of fire fighters and men working in mines. Are the armed forces headed that way ?
Disability pension and compensation package are by themselves major separate issues which need independent debates. Within disability pension there are number of issues/concessions which have been given to central govt civilians employees but not extended to the armed forces. The armed forces personnel are defenitely at greater risk of disability than their civilian counter parts.
As of now the compensation package does not cater for early retirement and alternative employment till the age of 60 yrs nor adequate pension to compensate for loss of earning due to early superannuation.
The concept of one rank one pension which in simple terms means “ that two persons retiring in the same rank with same length of service should get the same pension irrespective of the date of retirement”. Nobody raised questions as to why OROP is not administrativelyfeasible as said by the committee of secretaries or why OROP cannot be given?.
In a system which is rank based how can a Brig who retired after 2006 draw more pension than a Maj Gen who retired prior to 1/1/2006. It amounts to undermining the rank of Maj Gen. Will the babus accept a Jt Secy/Dir drawing more pension than a Addl Secy? The answer is a big NO then how come for the armed forces the pensions are forced down. The pensions are not being implemented inspite of the Supreme Court orders. The Ex Defence Secretary should have answered that.
Capt Dawar should have been asked as to why OROP has not been implemented inspite of it being recommended by the Standing Committeee on Defence since 1983 and forming part of the political manifesto of all political parties with assurances both outside and inside the parliament that OROP would be given. There should have been Power point slides to educate the people of the nation as to what really OROP means, what are the pension differences in ranks pre and post 2006 and not comparing a soldier to a fireman entering a building on fire. For those who have doubts, 26/11 is a stark naked reality. One can see who enters in line of ‘fire’
A valuable 30 min were wasted on irrelevant issues not pertaining to OROP. The show was totally unlike Barkha.
Thanking you
With regards
Secy RDOA
Visit Us At :
http://sites.google.com/site/rdoaindia
http://rdoaindia.blogspot.com
Sent: 14 September 2010 00:07
To: barkha@ndtv.com; feedback@ndtv.com
Cc: DELETED
Subject: NDTV PGMME ON OROP
Dear Barkha,
The views of RDOA follow:
The NDTV telecast on OROP was a big ‘Façade’ missing the main objective of ‘One Rank One Pension’. The debate spiraled to a tangent to issues like honour, izzat, compensation package, disability pension, to downgrading of armed forces to the level of fire fighters and men working in mines. Are the armed forces headed that way ?
Disability pension and compensation package are by themselves major separate issues which need independent debates. Within disability pension there are number of issues/concessions which have been given to central govt civilians employees but not extended to the armed forces. The armed forces personnel are defenitely at greater risk of disability than their civilian counter parts.
As of now the compensation package does not cater for early retirement and alternative employment till the age of 60 yrs nor adequate pension to compensate for loss of earning due to early superannuation.
The concept of one rank one pension which in simple terms means “ that two persons retiring in the same rank with same length of service should get the same pension irrespective of the date of retirement”. Nobody raised questions as to why OROP is not administrativelyfeasible as said by the committee of secretaries or why OROP cannot be given?.
In a system which is rank based how can a Brig who retired after 2006 draw more pension than a Maj Gen who retired prior to 1/1/2006. It amounts to undermining the rank of Maj Gen. Will the babus accept a Jt Secy/Dir drawing more pension than a Addl Secy? The answer is a big NO then how come for the armed forces the pensions are forced down. The pensions are not being implemented inspite of the Supreme Court orders. The Ex Defence Secretary should have answered that.
Capt Dawar should have been asked as to why OROP has not been implemented inspite of it being recommended by the Standing Committeee on Defence since 1983 and forming part of the political manifesto of all political parties with assurances both outside and inside the parliament that OROP would be given. There should have been Power point slides to educate the people of the nation as to what really OROP means, what are the pension differences in ranks pre and post 2006 and not comparing a soldier to a fireman entering a building on fire. For those who have doubts, 26/11 is a stark naked reality. One can see who enters in line of ‘fire’
A valuable 30 min were wasted on irrelevant issues not pertaining to OROP. The show was totally unlike Barkha.
Thanking you
With regards
Secy RDOA
Visit Us At :
http://sites.google.com/site/rdoaindia
http://rdoaindia.blogspot.com
Letter to Brakha Dutt by AVM Jk Pathania
-----------
From: JK Pathania [mailto:jkpathania@rediffmail.com]
Sent: None
To: barkha@ndtv.com
Cc: kamboj_cs@yahoo.co.in
Subject: we the people-ndtv, 12 sept10
dear ms barkha,
let me first thank u for airing a programme on ur channel so important to all pre 2006 exservicemen against the injustice and inequity in grant of one rank one pension (OROP).i must say without any equivocation that that u have always been the champion in the past to bring out the aberrations/shortcomings in our political /social system and proper governance of the country in the various facets of life and held in high esteem for ur fearless and dispassionate approach to conduct the debate proceedings and to draw correct conclusions.
i am sending u my sincere comments on public debate on 'ONE RANK ONE PENSION'on 12 sept10.
(a) senior lady representing MOD said that there are legal hassels to implement OROP.i may mention that she has been less than honest to rebutt our claim for OROP. if that was true then how it is that MOD is losing court cases one after another.they have lost in high court/supreme court/aft chandigarh/ aft delhi. all their arguments were rejected and it is in deed sad that they are not even implemented the judgememt dated 04 march in case of maj gens which we had won 5 months back. that is the respect they show to court decisions.what else a soldier can do except return his medals and sign his represntation in blood and burn his artificial limbs.in fact it is to his credit that despite utter disregard and balatantinsensitivies shown to him he still remains loyal and law abiding unlike his civilian counterpart who burn govt properties and national assets
(b) she gave no answer to points raised by capt sidhu who was made to suffer for years and remarks made by hon'able SUPREME COURT- 'DO NOT TREAT DEF OFFICERS AS BEGGARS' DID NOT TOUCH her COMPUCTION.
(c) remark was made that that honour and pay/ pension are not linked. i was surprised to hear such a comment from pinky Anand a very distiguished person and other learned professor of social sciences.if that is fact then why the FUNTAMENTAL RULES have made by the govt wherein it is provided that in case senior will get less junior.these rules have been obviously framed to ensure administrative fairplay and just properiety.
(d)the argument given for justifying parity in pension between pre 2006 and post 2006 cabinet secy and secy level is devoid of justifiable reasons.what sort of natural justice exists in our country when priciple of parity is applied to the highest in echelon like cabinetsecy. secy their equivalents, MLAS, MPS AND JUDGES OF HIGH COURTS AND SUPREME COURTS AND DENIED TO THE LOWER MOST . let the highest in the ladder set an example of integrity ,rectitude and probity and not abuse their position to gain unfair advantage.
2. i wish to state that whole debate became unfocussed. emotions got the better of real substance of the issues .govt officials did not come with proper facts of the case.neither did their arguments to explain the case carried any legal weight.other participants merely expressed their views without actually covering/analysing the legal/admin aspects of the case. final outcome was inconclusive. i personally feel those who fought the case in the courts and won the same should have been also involved in the debate for fruitful discussion and proper appreciation of the issues involved.
3 notwithstanding the entire ESM fraternity is grateful to u for giving OROP -a national perspective and bringing to the attention of those instrumentality of the state who deal with it . with regards
Air Vice Mshl J K Pathania(retd), UYSM AVSM VSM M&D
Member Supreme Court Bar Association
Former Senior Officer Administation, Hq Wester Air Comd
Former Director Pay Pension And Regulation -Air Hq
Crusader Against Injustice And Inequity- Maj/Gen Case
( WON ON 04MAR10 AT AFT CHANDIGARJ)
J K Pathania
From: JK Pathania [mailto:jkpathania@rediffmail.com]
Sent: None
To: barkha@ndtv.com
Cc: kamboj_cs@yahoo.co.in
Subject: we the people-ndtv, 12 sept10
dear ms barkha,
let me first thank u for airing a programme on ur channel so important to all pre 2006 exservicemen against the injustice and inequity in grant of one rank one pension (OROP).i must say without any equivocation that that u have always been the champion in the past to bring out the aberrations/shortcomings in our political /social system and proper governance of the country in the various facets of life and held in high esteem for ur fearless and dispassionate approach to conduct the debate proceedings and to draw correct conclusions.
i am sending u my sincere comments on public debate on 'ONE RANK ONE PENSION'on 12 sept10.
(a) senior lady representing MOD said that there are legal hassels to implement OROP.i may mention that she has been less than honest to rebutt our claim for OROP. if that was true then how it is that MOD is losing court cases one after another.they have lost in high court/supreme court/aft chandigarh/ aft delhi. all their arguments were rejected and it is in deed sad that they are not even implemented the judgememt dated 04 march in case of maj gens which we had won 5 months back. that is the respect they show to court decisions.what else a soldier can do except return his medals and sign his represntation in blood and burn his artificial limbs.in fact it is to his credit that despite utter disregard and balatantinsensitivies shown to him he still remains loyal and law abiding unlike his civilian counterpart who burn govt properties and national assets
(b) she gave no answer to points raised by capt sidhu who was made to suffer for years and remarks made by hon'able SUPREME COURT- 'DO NOT TREAT DEF OFFICERS AS BEGGARS' DID NOT TOUCH her COMPUCTION.
(c) remark was made that that honour and pay/ pension are not linked. i was surprised to hear such a comment from pinky Anand a very distiguished person and other learned professor of social sciences.if that is fact then why the FUNTAMENTAL RULES have made by the govt wherein it is provided that in case senior will get less junior.these rules have been obviously framed to ensure administrative fairplay and just properiety.
(d)the argument given for justifying parity in pension between pre 2006 and post 2006 cabinet secy and secy level is devoid of justifiable reasons.what sort of natural justice exists in our country when priciple of parity is applied to the highest in echelon like cabinetsecy. secy their equivalents, MLAS, MPS AND JUDGES OF HIGH COURTS AND SUPREME COURTS AND DENIED TO THE LOWER MOST . let the highest in the ladder set an example of integrity ,rectitude and probity and not abuse their position to gain unfair advantage.
2. i wish to state that whole debate became unfocussed. emotions got the better of real substance of the issues .govt officials did not come with proper facts of the case.neither did their arguments to explain the case carried any legal weight.other participants merely expressed their views without actually covering/analysing the legal/admin aspects of the case. final outcome was inconclusive. i personally feel those who fought the case in the courts and won the same should have been also involved in the debate for fruitful discussion and proper appreciation of the issues involved.
3 notwithstanding the entire ESM fraternity is grateful to u for giving OROP -a national perspective and bringing to the attention of those instrumentality of the state who deal with it . with regards
Air Vice Mshl J K Pathania(retd), UYSM AVSM VSM M&D
Member Supreme Court Bar Association
Former Senior Officer Administation, Hq Wester Air Comd
Former Director Pay Pension And Regulation -Air Hq
Crusader Against Injustice And Inequity- Maj/Gen Case
( WON ON 04MAR10 AT AFT CHANDIGARJ)
J K Pathania
Capt Davar....by Wg Cdr Kapoor
From: MG Kapoor [mailto:mgkapoor.1962@gmail.com]
Sent: 14 September 2010 12:22
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: Re: ESM SITREP 14 SEP 10 - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 443/2010 - (H to Z-1) - 14 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
Dear General Kadyan,
The views expressed by Captain Davar were NOT his views. He was mischievous and self indulging in denigerating the armed forces. I am not very sure if ever he was an army officer? Or was he cashiered or dismissed? He was telling all lies with impunity. He is a blur on Indian Army. We all may have dissentions but we would never denigerate our great armed force which we all served once.
In fact having seen the other side I would like to once again be an army officer in my next life.
I was only sorry that you permitted Davar to carry on with his lies and bluff.
With kind regards,
MG
Sent: 14 September 2010 12:22
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: Re: ESM SITREP 14 SEP 10 - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 443/2010 - (H to Z-1) - 14 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
Dear General Kadyan,
The views expressed by Captain Davar were NOT his views. He was mischievous and self indulging in denigerating the armed forces. I am not very sure if ever he was an army officer? Or was he cashiered or dismissed? He was telling all lies with impunity. He is a blur on Indian Army. We all may have dissentions but we would never denigerate our great armed force which we all served once.
In fact having seen the other side I would like to once again be an army officer in my next life.
I was only sorry that you permitted Davar to carry on with his lies and bluff.
With kind regards,
MG
NDTV...Views by Cdr PP Batra from USA
From: prem parkash batra [mailto:premprempb@rediffmail.com]
Sent: 14 September 2010 14:11
To: rajkadyan@yahoo.com
Cc: DELETED
Subject:
HONOUR=
CONSTITUTION GUARANTEE EVERY INDIAN TO LIVE WITH DIGNITY
Lt Gen Raj Kadyan/IESM
Dear Sir,
1. I would like to say that your assessment of NDTV discussions on OROP is conservatively near realism. And that makes you more determined to pursue single mindedly the IESM aim.
2. However please permit to speak on one point about the paramouncy of honour in Armed Forces which has cropped up in Emails. I have no legal background what so ever but in my two hours of thumping through the pages of our Constitution, I was surprised to see that only few linesare devoted to Armed Forces and that too partly to abridge our fundamental rights. But I do not recall word honour embedded there. But what the Fundamental Rights included is for Indian to live with-Dignity. Which if roughly translated would mean "IZZAT" and which we use very frequently in our defence parlance.
But Armed Forces fight for honour of the Country but they are not expected to fight for their honour.
3. If that be so then what ESM are asking is--IZZAN-MAAN-SMAAN- which
is our fundamental right and cannot be abridged.
You may like to look into. There are many legal luminaries in ESM ranks
who can throw better light.
4. Lastly please permit me again to suggest that Office Bearers of IESM
may like to acquire an official copy of Constitution and keep within reach. And no harm in leafing through. No harm in having legal sense because IESM has to take care of that front too.
With best regards,
Cdr Prem P Batra Retired.
Sent: 14 September 2010 14:11
To: rajkadyan@yahoo.com
Cc: DELETED
Subject:
HONOUR=
CONSTITUTION GUARANTEE EVERY INDIAN TO LIVE WITH DIGNITY
Lt Gen Raj Kadyan/IESM
Dear Sir,
1. I would like to say that your assessment of NDTV discussions on OROP is conservatively near realism. And that makes you more determined to pursue single mindedly the IESM aim.
2. However please permit to speak on one point about the paramouncy of honour in Armed Forces which has cropped up in Emails. I have no legal background what so ever but in my two hours of thumping through the pages of our Constitution, I was surprised to see that only few linesare devoted to Armed Forces and that too partly to abridge our fundamental rights. But I do not recall word honour embedded there. But what the Fundamental Rights included is for Indian to live with-Dignity. Which if roughly translated would mean "IZZAT" and which we use very frequently in our defence parlance.
But Armed Forces fight for honour of the Country but they are not expected to fight for their honour.
3. If that be so then what ESM are asking is--IZZAN-MAAN-SMAAN- which
is our fundamental right and cannot be abridged.
You may like to look into. There are many legal luminaries in ESM ranks
who can throw better light.
4. Lastly please permit me again to suggest that Office Bearers of IESM
may like to acquire an official copy of Constitution and keep within reach. And no harm in leafing through. No harm in having legal sense because IESM has to take care of that front too.
With best regards,
Cdr Prem P Batra Retired.
Wg Cdr AB Bhushan from Singapore...on NDTV
From: Avula Bharath Bhushan [mailto:avulab@hotmail.com]
Sent: 13 September 2010 23:24
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: Re: NDTV PROGRAMME ON OROP - RESPONSE BY MEMBERS - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 441/2010 - (A to G) - 13 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
Dear sir
I am away in Singapore but watched the programme .
Just an idea why not consult with Shri Harish salve and have him on the panel if there is such a program in future as the word constitution was being used so freely .
It was a good show.
Wg cdr (Retd)A B Bhushan
Sent: 13 September 2010 23:24
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: Re: NDTV PROGRAMME ON OROP - RESPONSE BY MEMBERS - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 441/2010 - (A to G) - 13 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
Dear sir
I am away in Singapore but watched the programme .
Just an idea why not consult with Shri Harish salve and have him on the panel if there is such a program in future as the word constitution was being used so freely .
It was a good show.
Wg cdr (Retd)A B Bhushan
NDTV Views by Lt Col SS Bhatia
From: SANTOKH BHATIA [mailto:santokhsb@gmail.com]
Sent: 14 September 2010 11:27
To: Kamboj Chander; rajkadyan@yahoo.com; kamboj_cs@yahoo.co.in
Cc: CSK551@DATAONE.IN
Subject: Re: ESM SITREP 14 SEP 10 - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 443/2010 - (A to G) - 14 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
Respected Sir,
I suggest that since Brig KP Singh Deo has not watched the NDTV program,he could be requested to watch it on the following link and see for himself how confidently that pseudo Capt Davar has put across the Govt points of view.If these are his personal views, he has to be corrected.
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/we-the-people-war-veterans-still-fighting/163348
I wish a speaker from IESL was also there to confirm if JCOs and ORs were happy with removal of 13 years old disparity (Termed as OROP by the Govt). May be it was pointed out and edited.
A rejoinder from IESL on the statement of Daver would be more appropriate.
The above mentioned link must be forwarded to max MPs and civilian friends.
LONG LIVE IESM
Regards.
Lt Col S.S.Bhatia,VETERAN
Sent: 14 September 2010 11:27
To: Kamboj Chander; rajkadyan@yahoo.com; kamboj_cs@yahoo.co.in
Cc: CSK551@DATAONE.IN
Subject: Re: ESM SITREP 14 SEP 10 - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 443/2010 - (A to G) - 14 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
Respected Sir,
I suggest that since Brig KP Singh Deo has not watched the NDTV program,he could be requested to watch it on the following link and see for himself how confidently that pseudo Capt Davar has put across the Govt points of view.If these are his personal views, he has to be corrected.
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/we-the-people-war-veterans-still-fighting/163348
I wish a speaker from IESL was also there to confirm if JCOs and ORs were happy with removal of 13 years old disparity (Termed as OROP by the Govt). May be it was pointed out and edited.
A rejoinder from IESL on the statement of Daver would be more appropriate.
The above mentioned link must be forwarded to max MPs and civilian friends.
LONG LIVE IESM
Regards.
Lt Col S.S.Bhatia,VETERAN
NDTV ..Views by Maj Gen VK Khanna
From: Vinod K Khanna [mailto:vinodkhanna.vinod@gmail.com]
Sent: 14 September 2010 02:26
To: Kamboj Chander
Cc: C S Kamboj; Kamboj Chander
Subject: OROP Program on NDTV
Dear Chander
Watched NDTV program with interest. Overall it off well but I am sharing a few points that came to my mind to make our case more effective for future. Here I would like to point out the contrarian views expressed by Prof Shah et al.
Some of the points raised by them are as follows:
A younger person would always earn more than an older person
(We should not labour on this point any more. This is the only sensible sentence spoken by Professor Shaw during the entire show. It was a very unwise question raised by some one – without thinking of the reply he would get; lacked forethought – person deserved this reply.
Professor spoke like a robot programmed by IAS, with no heart and no brain of his own. The programmer of the Robot does not know the difference between Fire Brigade and Army. What a shame. – Chander Kamboj)
Armed forces personnel signed a contract before joining service on a voluntary basis. They are governed by that contract and now cannot claim any special privilege due to risk factor.
There is nothing extraordinary about army risk since many other services like fire fighting personnel also face risks
Government is fully honoring the 6 CPC formula for fixation of pensions. If retired secretaries get 50 % of pay as pension, that is because they are on a fixed pay
Though government is committed to a separate pay commission for the services, you have to wait another nine years for it take effect (six years before it is convened and another three for its implementation)
There is no legal obligation of government to grant OROP
OROP would be disastrous for government finances since others would also demand it
There is nothing unique about armed forces as they are just one category of government servants
The present UPA government has done more for the services that any previous administration
I feel we should put our heads together and find suitable answers to these and many other questions that may be raised as also as to why OROP should only be for the services.
I am afraid emotional arguments would have limited utility and not carry much weight with so called neutral audiences
Kind regards
Maj Gen Vinod K Khanna
Sent: 14 September 2010 02:26
To: Kamboj Chander
Cc: C S Kamboj; Kamboj Chander
Subject: OROP Program on NDTV
Dear Chander
Watched NDTV program with interest. Overall it off well but I am sharing a few points that came to my mind to make our case more effective for future. Here I would like to point out the contrarian views expressed by Prof Shah et al.
Some of the points raised by them are as follows:
A younger person would always earn more than an older person
(We should not labour on this point any more. This is the only sensible sentence spoken by Professor Shaw during the entire show. It was a very unwise question raised by some one – without thinking of the reply he would get; lacked forethought – person deserved this reply.
Professor spoke like a robot programmed by IAS, with no heart and no brain of his own. The programmer of the Robot does not know the difference between Fire Brigade and Army. What a shame. – Chander Kamboj)
Armed forces personnel signed a contract before joining service on a voluntary basis. They are governed by that contract and now cannot claim any special privilege due to risk factor.
There is nothing extraordinary about army risk since many other services like fire fighting personnel also face risks
Government is fully honoring the 6 CPC formula for fixation of pensions. If retired secretaries get 50 % of pay as pension, that is because they are on a fixed pay
Though government is committed to a separate pay commission for the services, you have to wait another nine years for it take effect (six years before it is convened and another three for its implementation)
There is no legal obligation of government to grant OROP
OROP would be disastrous for government finances since others would also demand it
There is nothing unique about armed forces as they are just one category of government servants
The present UPA government has done more for the services that any previous administration
I feel we should put our heads together and find suitable answers to these and many other questions that may be raised as also as to why OROP should only be for the services.
I am afraid emotional arguments would have limited utility and not carry much weight with so called neutral audiences
Kind regards
Maj Gen Vinod K Khanna
NDTV ..Views by Maj Gen DN Varma
From: D N Varma [mailto:varmadn@gmail.com]
Sent: 14 September 2010 00:26
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: Re: NDTV PROGRAMME ON OROP - RESPONSE BY MEMBERS - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 441/2010 - (H to Z-2) - 13 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
Chander.
Our case on the Barkha Dutt program on NDTV was well presented.
One point though; however strongly we may feel on the 'honour' and sentimental reasons, we need to be hard headed also. For example, issue of retirement age was taken up but not forcefully enough.
It is not only OR but JCOs and specially officers also retire at early age not because they are not good enough but because pyramid is very steep due to operational reasons, structure etc.
We could work out statistics to show how it affects their pension vis a vis the civilians.
I hope we will get what we deserve viz OROP.
Regards.
DN (Maj Gen DN Varma, Gurgaon)
Sent: 14 September 2010 00:26
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: Re: NDTV PROGRAMME ON OROP - RESPONSE BY MEMBERS - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 441/2010 - (H to Z-2) - 13 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
Chander.
Our case on the Barkha Dutt program on NDTV was well presented.
One point though; however strongly we may feel on the 'honour' and sentimental reasons, we need to be hard headed also. For example, issue of retirement age was taken up but not forcefully enough.
It is not only OR but JCOs and specially officers also retire at early age not because they are not good enough but because pyramid is very steep due to operational reasons, structure etc.
We could work out statistics to show how it affects their pension vis a vis the civilians.
I hope we will get what we deserve viz OROP.
Regards.
DN (Maj Gen DN Varma, Gurgaon)
NDTV PROGRAMME ON OROP by R Adm Malhan
From: sushma malhan [mailto:malhansushma@hotmail.com]
Sent: 14 September 2010 05:55
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: RE: NDTV PROGRAMME ON OROP - RESPONSE BY MEMBERS - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 441/2010 - (H to Z-1) - 13 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
Dear Veterans,
like most of you I also watched the NDTV prog on OROP.
I have only the follwing arguments to support our case –
1 OROP is a commitment of the successive govts and the civil servants should find the ways and means to implement this rather than put legal and other obstacles to it.
2 when the lady gave the argument that OROP is tenable for the Secretaries to the govt of India because they get fixed pay and not to others because they have a scale of pay and it would tentamount to revising their salaries from retrospective effect ( when they were not in service ), our argument shoud have been---- aren't the ''fixed pays of the old retired secretaries also being revised retrospectively ( when they were not in service ) to enable them to get the same pension as th recently retired ones? How is that legally tenable?
Jai Hind
K L Malhan
Rear Admiral ( Retd )
Sent: 14 September 2010 05:55
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: RE: NDTV PROGRAMME ON OROP - RESPONSE BY MEMBERS - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 441/2010 - (H to Z-1) - 13 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
Dear Veterans,
like most of you I also watched the NDTV prog on OROP.
I have only the follwing arguments to support our case –
1 OROP is a commitment of the successive govts and the civil servants should find the ways and means to implement this rather than put legal and other obstacles to it.
2 when the lady gave the argument that OROP is tenable for the Secretaries to the govt of India because they get fixed pay and not to others because they have a scale of pay and it would tentamount to revising their salaries from retrospective effect ( when they were not in service ), our argument shoud have been---- aren't the ''fixed pays of the old retired secretaries also being revised retrospectively ( when they were not in service ) to enable them to get the same pension as th recently retired ones? How is that legally tenable?
Jai Hind
K L Malhan
Rear Admiral ( Retd )
OROP programme on NDTV on 12 Sep by Air Cmde Pannu
From: T Pannu [mailto:tpannu@gmail.com]
Sent: 14 September 2010 09:44
To: REPORT MY SIGNAL(CS Kamboj)
Subject: OROP programme on NDTV on 12 Sep
Dear Brig Kamboj,
Sorry for late reaction; had been pre-occupied on something urgent.
Have read with interest comments by various ESM on the NDTV programme. While there has been positive appreciation by majority, a few have expressed dissatisfaction; wonder what were the expectations of the latter.
It was nice of General Oberoi to have intimated in advance that the programme stands edited to a great extent. Inspite of the editing, what came out was excellent. The aim of creating awareness among public, specially the younger generation, regarding ill treatment being meted out to armed forces was, by and large, achieved.
There is no guarantee, however, whether it would make any dent on the mind-set of bureaucrats, few of whom seem to have sworn that they would not let OROP come thru.
Notwithstanding, we need to follow Gita to do our duty without caring for the outcome. I think, IESM deserves appreciation for relentlessly following this path; God will help.
Looking at the event dispassionately, all the speakers were at their best in their assigned roles. Gen Kadyan & Gen Oberoi stood out by showing grace in remaining calm, yet conveyed the message very effectively and meaningfully.
Kudos to Shri Rajeev Chandrashekhar MP, who in my opinion, could be termed as "Star Performer". Single handedly, he is proving a big force behind us; we owe our gratitude to him and should wish him "All the best in life".
Kicks to Capt Davar, who seems to be the biggest stooge of AICC. Looks like, he is brainwashed; wonder whether he served in Indian Army or some other one. Less said about him, the better.
Mrs Indu Liberhan and Prof Ajay Shah appeared to have been given a mandate or hired by the bureaucracy to tow their line and, let us admit, they did their job as they were expected.
Incidently, Mrs Liberhan is not from IAS; she is most likely from IDAS cadre. In mid 90s(before my retirement), we had stayed in the same block in Kaka Nagar and she appealed to us as a good human being. Probably, she was now cast in a different role by the IAS, who like to fire from others' shoulders.
Cmde Uday Bhaskar's interjection was really superb; Mr Manvender Singh, Capt Sidhu, Lt Pandey etc and the younger generation added spice to the show.
Last but not the least, it could not have been possible without Ms Burkha Dutt; she is really too good and adorable; God bless her!!!
Let us now think of what next?
Regards.
T Pannu
Air Cmde (Retd)
Sent: 14 September 2010 09:44
To: REPORT MY SIGNAL(CS Kamboj)
Subject: OROP programme on NDTV on 12 Sep
Dear Brig Kamboj,
Sorry for late reaction; had been pre-occupied on something urgent.
Have read with interest comments by various ESM on the NDTV programme. While there has been positive appreciation by majority, a few have expressed dissatisfaction; wonder what were the expectations of the latter.
It was nice of General Oberoi to have intimated in advance that the programme stands edited to a great extent. Inspite of the editing, what came out was excellent. The aim of creating awareness among public, specially the younger generation, regarding ill treatment being meted out to armed forces was, by and large, achieved.
There is no guarantee, however, whether it would make any dent on the mind-set of bureaucrats, few of whom seem to have sworn that they would not let OROP come thru.
Notwithstanding, we need to follow Gita to do our duty without caring for the outcome. I think, IESM deserves appreciation for relentlessly following this path; God will help.
Looking at the event dispassionately, all the speakers were at their best in their assigned roles. Gen Kadyan & Gen Oberoi stood out by showing grace in remaining calm, yet conveyed the message very effectively and meaningfully.
Kudos to Shri Rajeev Chandrashekhar MP, who in my opinion, could be termed as "Star Performer". Single handedly, he is proving a big force behind us; we owe our gratitude to him and should wish him "All the best in life".
Kicks to Capt Davar, who seems to be the biggest stooge of AICC. Looks like, he is brainwashed; wonder whether he served in Indian Army or some other one. Less said about him, the better.
Mrs Indu Liberhan and Prof Ajay Shah appeared to have been given a mandate or hired by the bureaucracy to tow their line and, let us admit, they did their job as they were expected.
Incidently, Mrs Liberhan is not from IAS; she is most likely from IDAS cadre. In mid 90s(before my retirement), we had stayed in the same block in Kaka Nagar and she appealed to us as a good human being. Probably, she was now cast in a different role by the IAS, who like to fire from others' shoulders.
Cmde Uday Bhaskar's interjection was really superb; Mr Manvender Singh, Capt Sidhu, Lt Pandey etc and the younger generation added spice to the show.
Last but not the least, it could not have been possible without Ms Burkha Dutt; she is really too good and adorable; God bless her!!!
Let us now think of what next?
Regards.
T Pannu
Air Cmde (Retd)
Views by AVM RP Mishra
From: RP Mishra [mailto:avmrpm@gmail.com]
Sent: 14 September 2010 00:30
To: Brig CS Kamboj
Subject: RTI
Dear Brigadier Kamboj,
Please refer to your remarks –
"(It is high time that IESM create a cell for ‘RTI’ and ‘Starred Questions’.
These two are very powerful tools of democracy.
Number of times this suggestion has come up, but IESM has not acted on it.
The forthcoming meeting of the IESM Core Group should discuss this issue and finalise the arrangements.
It is not necessary that all tasks must be performed by the Executive Committee of the IESM.
Kindly consider co-opting other ESM and form this Cell. - Chander Kamboj)"
I have already asked following information through my application under RTI Act with reference to Report of Committee of Secretaries on One Rank One Pension and Related issues –
1. Para 6.9 of the Report. Since financial effects must have been worked out based on number of pensioners, number of Lt Generals and equivalent in the other two services, Additional Secretaries, Chief Commissioners(Income Tax and Customs), Additional DGs of Police and equivalent civilian officers affected by grant of higher pension may be informed for each category separately.
2. Para 6.10. Financial implications on recurring expenditure for each category mentioned above may be informed.
3.. Para 9. Financial implications on account of arrears due to bringing Lt Generals and equivalent to grade 67000-79000 may be provided separately for all categories mentioned above.
I have also asked how many Major Generals and there equivalents in the other two services, Joint Secretaries and equivalent of categories mentioned above were drawing pension as on 31 Dec 1995.
I have also enquired as to the pension fixation formula for Defence officers and civil services officers in 1960? How was it related to maximum pay of the rank? Was pension of civil services officers also fixed based on maximum of pay or as a percentage of pay at the time of retirement.
My application was addressed to CPIO Cabinet Secretariat as the Committee was headed by Cabinet Secretary. He forwarded the same to CPIO Deptt of ESW and Deptt of Expenditure. Deptt of Expenditure referred it back to Deptt of ESW stating that they did not provided Secretariat to the Committee. Deptt of ESW again referred it back to Deptt of Expenditure who have again sent it back to Deptt of ESW.
Only Deptt of Pension and Pension Welfare, Ministry of Personnel Public Grievances and Pensions, to whom query was referred to by Deptt of ESW, has provided information for civil service officers. As per the information, with effect from 22 April 1960, those who had completed 10 years or more of service were entitled for pension. Pension was 10/60 of average emoluments but not exceeding 2000 a year, after completion of 10 years of service, 24.5/60 of average emoluments but not exceeding 4900 a year on completion of 24.5 years of service, going up to 30/60 of average emoluments but not exceeding 5000 a year for those retiring after 25 or more years of service. Other Departments to whom Deptt of ESW had transferred the points raised by me, have either referred it back to them or given insufficient information. For example, PCDA Allahabad has said they do not have any information about number of Major Generals and equivalent.
I have already preferred first appeal to the Appellate Authorities of CGDA and Deptt of ESW.
Regards
AVM RP Mishra
Sent: 14 September 2010 00:30
To: Brig CS Kamboj
Subject: RTI
Dear Brigadier Kamboj,
Please refer to your remarks –
"(It is high time that IESM create a cell for ‘RTI’ and ‘Starred Questions’.
These two are very powerful tools of democracy.
Number of times this suggestion has come up, but IESM has not acted on it.
The forthcoming meeting of the IESM Core Group should discuss this issue and finalise the arrangements.
It is not necessary that all tasks must be performed by the Executive Committee of the IESM.
Kindly consider co-opting other ESM and form this Cell. - Chander Kamboj)"
I have already asked following information through my application under RTI Act with reference to Report of Committee of Secretaries on One Rank One Pension and Related issues –
1. Para 6.9 of the Report. Since financial effects must have been worked out based on number of pensioners, number of Lt Generals and equivalent in the other two services, Additional Secretaries, Chief Commissioners(Income Tax and Customs), Additional DGs of Police and equivalent civilian officers affected by grant of higher pension may be informed for each category separately.
2. Para 6.10. Financial implications on recurring expenditure for each category mentioned above may be informed.
3.. Para 9. Financial implications on account of arrears due to bringing Lt Generals and equivalent to grade 67000-79000 may be provided separately for all categories mentioned above.
I have also asked how many Major Generals and there equivalents in the other two services, Joint Secretaries and equivalent of categories mentioned above were drawing pension as on 31 Dec 1995.
I have also enquired as to the pension fixation formula for Defence officers and civil services officers in 1960? How was it related to maximum pay of the rank? Was pension of civil services officers also fixed based on maximum of pay or as a percentage of pay at the time of retirement.
My application was addressed to CPIO Cabinet Secretariat as the Committee was headed by Cabinet Secretary. He forwarded the same to CPIO Deptt of ESW and Deptt of Expenditure. Deptt of Expenditure referred it back to Deptt of ESW stating that they did not provided Secretariat to the Committee. Deptt of ESW again referred it back to Deptt of Expenditure who have again sent it back to Deptt of ESW.
Only Deptt of Pension and Pension Welfare, Ministry of Personnel Public Grievances and Pensions, to whom query was referred to by Deptt of ESW, has provided information for civil service officers. As per the information, with effect from 22 April 1960, those who had completed 10 years or more of service were entitled for pension. Pension was 10/60 of average emoluments but not exceeding 2000 a year, after completion of 10 years of service, 24.5/60 of average emoluments but not exceeding 4900 a year on completion of 24.5 years of service, going up to 30/60 of average emoluments but not exceeding 5000 a year for those retiring after 25 or more years of service. Other Departments to whom Deptt of ESW had transferred the points raised by me, have either referred it back to them or given insufficient information. For example, PCDA Allahabad has said they do not have any information about number of Major Generals and equivalent.
I have already preferred first appeal to the Appellate Authorities of CGDA and Deptt of ESW.
Regards
AVM RP Mishra
Lt Cdrs Case with AFT - Another Victory
Dear Members,
We are pleased to inform that we have won the case for the enhanced Pension payable to Lt Cdrs, filed by Cdr Avtar Singh and well fought by Cmde Skhjinder Singh.The judgment was pronounced this morning by the tribunal bench headed by Justice Mathur and Lt Gen M Naidu. Copy of the judgment will be available only in a couple of days and the same will also be promulgated for your info.
The Lt Commanders will now be entitled to a pension of 50% of what the serving Lt Commander in service are drawing. It may make a difference of about Rs 4000 in their pensions.
We were awaiting the outcome of this case to file the Case for the Cmdes / Brigs etc and the needful will be done shortly. Cmde Sukhjinder will be steering this case and NFDC will also be a litigant.
This is another battle won for the Veterans with the help of the judicial process but there are good reasons to believe that as is now the norm, the MOD will file an SLP.
Vice Admiral Harinder Singh,
C 26, Sector 23,
Noida 201301
0120-2412412 9811668776
We are pleased to inform that we have won the case for the enhanced Pension payable to Lt Cdrs, filed by Cdr Avtar Singh and well fought by Cmde Skhjinder Singh.The judgment was pronounced this morning by the tribunal bench headed by Justice Mathur and Lt Gen M Naidu. Copy of the judgment will be available only in a couple of days and the same will also be promulgated for your info.
The Lt Commanders will now be entitled to a pension of 50% of what the serving Lt Commander in service are drawing. It may make a difference of about Rs 4000 in their pensions.
We were awaiting the outcome of this case to file the Case for the Cmdes / Brigs etc and the needful will be done shortly. Cmde Sukhjinder will be steering this case and NFDC will also be a litigant.
This is another battle won for the Veterans with the help of the judicial process but there are good reasons to believe that as is now the norm, the MOD will file an SLP.
Vice Admiral Harinder Singh,
C 26, Sector 23,
Noida 201301
0120-2412412 9811668776
Way Ahead by Veteran Nawab Heer from Punjab
Dear All,
On behalf of all ESM organisations and IESM we all congratulate Capt Sidhu,Gen Raj Kadyan,Gen Oberoi,Commander Bhasker ,Malvendra Singh and MP Chander Shekhar.
They have done a wonderful job.
We were working behind the scene for the last few days with CNBC through Bharkha Datt.More than Veterasn who participated we are also proud of Cantonment Kids(CK,s)i.e. MP Chander Shekhar,Malvendra Singh and Barkha Datt.
Now we are nearing it.We are providing common brief on behalf of all ESM,s of Punjab to Punjab MP,s.We will request all other states to do so.We are convinced that during next session of Parliament there will be a debate on OROP.we must all now work on our MP,s.General Satbir informed me that they have already contacted 35 MP,s in Delhi we need to contact all 542.
I being coordinator of ESM,s of Punjab having been given powers to "Declare HUKA PANI BAND" of any ESM working against cause of ESM,today having been convinced that Capt Parveen Davar EX Deccan Horse need to be declared as 'Jai Chand Of ESM".So any ESM dealing with him will be annoying all ESM community.I will request all to boycott Capt Davar from all social get together in Delhi and elsewhere for his stance totally against ESM. He is socially boycotted till he renders apology to all ESM of India.
One lesson which emerges out of the debate that rather than depending on only emotions and sentiments we need to find real answers for two questions.One,legality part of OROP.Two,an analogy given by professor that over a period of time differences in pension likely to appear between son and father retiring in same rank.Please do not start shooting me;I am suggesting we must have real time answers.Somehow I felt that our Generals although gave very good points ,but were not that prepared for the few points raised by the enemy camp.In future we have to be prepared.For the debate in parliament we need some well read and informed Generals like Gen R and few others irrespective of ranks.
CK,s are our HR for future ventures.With all respect to Barkha,it seemed that she was also biased against us,unless it is my tainted mind.MP Chnader Shekhar and Capt Sidhu carried the day.
Request to all ESM. reinforce success by holding all types of protests including Candle Laight Vigil throught India.Nothing goes un-noticed.Please unite irrespective IESM/IESL or any other ESM org.Rise above party lines,my request to friend davar also
Regards,
Veteran Nawab
__._,_.___
On behalf of all ESM organisations and IESM we all congratulate Capt Sidhu,Gen Raj Kadyan,Gen Oberoi,Commander Bhasker ,Malvendra Singh and MP Chander Shekhar.
They have done a wonderful job.
We were working behind the scene for the last few days with CNBC through Bharkha Datt.More than Veterasn who participated we are also proud of Cantonment Kids(CK,s)i.e. MP Chander Shekhar,Malvendra Singh and Barkha Datt.
Now we are nearing it.We are providing common brief on behalf of all ESM,s of Punjab to Punjab MP,s.We will request all other states to do so.We are convinced that during next session of Parliament there will be a debate on OROP.we must all now work on our MP,s.General Satbir informed me that they have already contacted 35 MP,s in Delhi we need to contact all 542.
I being coordinator of ESM,s of Punjab having been given powers to "Declare HUKA PANI BAND" of any ESM working against cause of ESM,today having been convinced that Capt Parveen Davar EX Deccan Horse need to be declared as 'Jai Chand Of ESM".So any ESM dealing with him will be annoying all ESM community.I will request all to boycott Capt Davar from all social get together in Delhi and elsewhere for his stance totally against ESM. He is socially boycotted till he renders apology to all ESM of India.
One lesson which emerges out of the debate that rather than depending on only emotions and sentiments we need to find real answers for two questions.One,legality part of OROP.Two,an analogy given by professor that over a period of time differences in pension likely to appear between son and father retiring in same rank.Please do not start shooting me;I am suggesting we must have real time answers.Somehow I felt that our Generals although gave very good points ,but were not that prepared for the few points raised by the enemy camp.In future we have to be prepared.For the debate in parliament we need some well read and informed Generals like Gen R and few others irrespective of ranks.
CK,s are our HR for future ventures.With all respect to Barkha,it seemed that she was also biased against us,unless it is my tainted mind.MP Chnader Shekhar and Capt Sidhu carried the day.
Request to all ESM. reinforce success by holding all types of protests including Candle Laight Vigil throught India.Nothing goes un-noticed.Please unite irrespective IESM/IESL or any other ESM org.Rise above party lines,my request to friend davar also
Regards,
Veteran Nawab
__._,_.___
NDTV..Views by MAj Gen K Khorana
From: Krishen Khorana [mailto:kkrishen@hotmail.com]
Sent: 13 September 2010 02:45
To: Barkha Dutt
Cc: DELETED
Subject: We The People - 12 September 2010. Comments and Suggestion
Dear Ms Barkha Dutt,
Hope you find the time to go through the following write up.
Maj Gen (Retd) K Khorana
2, Sector 2
Panchkula.
“We The People” – 12 September 2010. Comments and Suggestion.
Who says money and honour are not linked?
Only combination of the two gives status. How can one forget that in India, money alone can accord power and status? And yet, linkage of money with honour is neither dishonourable nor something new in society and history. However, using it as a clever argument and reddest of red herring the IAS and others of their ilk scored a brownie point over services representatives’ assertion.
It is time that our governments and the civil society stops treating the army as “good man the laaltain”. The “laaltain” must be prevented from extinguishing.
Tell me, would you accord the same respect, honour and what have you to say Ambanis, Birlas and Tatas sans their money? Or how many times would you invite Pratibha Patil, Sharad Pawar, Lallu Yadav, Sushma Swaraj, Paswan and their likes to your channel studios had it not been for their status in civil society? Status, honour, money and power are all interlinked.
All segments of society serve humanity. We all understand that. But in each profession (doctors, teachers, lawyers etc) has individual clients, from whom they obtain remuneration/fee as per their personal skill and volition. Armed forces have the whole nation as its client (dealing with the nation through its elected representatives, irrespective of their political affiliations). But ultimately it has to and must remain responsible to the whole nation. Equally, it becomes the responsibility of the nation through its elected representatives to ensure that needs of the military are fulfilled; they are not in a postion like in other professions, to demand directly for themselves from the vast nation. Some panellists were ignorant on such matters.
Today, our Supreme Court, as one of the pillars of our democracy (feudalistic in nature), felt it necessary to frequently indict the country’s executive - “don’t treat soldiers like beggars”, “don’t make soldiers run from pillar to post with their grievances”, “don’t create classes with a class” etc etc. Despite indictments, our Government goes back, again and again, to the Supreme Court to reverse its judgements in favour of soldiers. With what intent? That attitude of the government alone has proved the proverbial straw for soldiers, particularly the retired. In their ‘peaceful’ agitation mode, they have begun to submit their memoranda signed with their own blood. Mind you that in itself is a violent act. One wonders what it would be next to make the government(s) and civil society to listen and solve retired soldiers’ grievances.
The argument by one panellist (a bureaucrat) that cabinet secretary, chiefs and others drawing ‘fixed scales’ are only getting 50 percent of pay last drawn was utter hogwash. Cleverly done, it made all pre 2006 retirees the beneficiary. The dispensation gave benefit to almost 70 percent of the entire IAS cadre recruited directly, commencing 1947! The benefit would not go to beyond double digits for those who served the armed forces. And in any case, what stopped the government from ‘fixed scales’ for every rank of the Indian Army, from 2nd Lieutenant to Lt General (40000 to 80000)!
The biggest fiddle of 6th CPC was sadly missed out. Historically, whether during British Raj or post independence, every rank was paid pension according to one’s rank; higher the rank, higher the pension. In one stroke, in 6th CPC, ranks were done away with and minimum of “pay band”, irrespective of the rank, introduced! From lt colonel to lt general, all get the same basic pension, with minor differences introduced for argument’s sake and to technically defeat Apex Court judgements. One begins to wonder as to what kind of human beings are there in our bureaucracy and the government!
OROP was a simple in its inception, when it came up in the eighties. Many governments agreed for its implementation. In a contemporaneous environment, with every delay (over decades now) and the governments’ baulking at Supreme Court judgments in favour of retired soldiers, the issue is now seen as one of great injustice, hence highly emotive too. It would be a folly to let the matter linger any further.
Suggested Solution.
1. Government should immediately obey and implement judgements, orders and instructions passed by Indian Supreme Court, as it pertains to pay and pension of retired armed forces personnel, in LETTER AND SPIRIT, and not just technically to hoodwink the Apex Court and affected people.
2. As an interim measure, the government should immediately place and implement “Fixed Formula” for basic pensions of retired soldiers, at a scale of say between 85-90 percent of basic pension drawn by each rank retiring after 2006. The said ‘fixed formula’ should then be further refined by the next pay commission, central or for armed forces, on the lines of OROP.
3. Armed Forces Pay Commission for serving and retired soldiers to be convened by January 2011, delinking it from any periodicity and to be held on the basis of inflation and cost index. Report to be submitted by June 2011 and implemented by December 2011, after approval of Parliament in its winter session.
4. Military Pensions Formulae be converted into a law and built into The Constitution of India. (Away from any political or bureaucratic consideration).
5. Above formulations to ensure that armed forces remain apolitical, efficient and clean.
Suffice it to say that the present logjam must be broken, for the good of the country and the armed forces.
K Khorana
Maj Gen (Retd)
Sent: 13 September 2010 02:45
To: Barkha Dutt
Cc: DELETED
Subject: We The People - 12 September 2010. Comments and Suggestion
Dear Ms Barkha Dutt,
Hope you find the time to go through the following write up.
Maj Gen (Retd) K Khorana
2, Sector 2
Panchkula.
“We The People” – 12 September 2010. Comments and Suggestion.
Who says money and honour are not linked?
Only combination of the two gives status. How can one forget that in India, money alone can accord power and status? And yet, linkage of money with honour is neither dishonourable nor something new in society and history. However, using it as a clever argument and reddest of red herring the IAS and others of their ilk scored a brownie point over services representatives’ assertion.
It is time that our governments and the civil society stops treating the army as “good man the laaltain”. The “laaltain” must be prevented from extinguishing.
Tell me, would you accord the same respect, honour and what have you to say Ambanis, Birlas and Tatas sans their money? Or how many times would you invite Pratibha Patil, Sharad Pawar, Lallu Yadav, Sushma Swaraj, Paswan and their likes to your channel studios had it not been for their status in civil society? Status, honour, money and power are all interlinked.
All segments of society serve humanity. We all understand that. But in each profession (doctors, teachers, lawyers etc) has individual clients, from whom they obtain remuneration/fee as per their personal skill and volition. Armed forces have the whole nation as its client (dealing with the nation through its elected representatives, irrespective of their political affiliations). But ultimately it has to and must remain responsible to the whole nation. Equally, it becomes the responsibility of the nation through its elected representatives to ensure that needs of the military are fulfilled; they are not in a postion like in other professions, to demand directly for themselves from the vast nation. Some panellists were ignorant on such matters.
Today, our Supreme Court, as one of the pillars of our democracy (feudalistic in nature), felt it necessary to frequently indict the country’s executive - “don’t treat soldiers like beggars”, “don’t make soldiers run from pillar to post with their grievances”, “don’t create classes with a class” etc etc. Despite indictments, our Government goes back, again and again, to the Supreme Court to reverse its judgements in favour of soldiers. With what intent? That attitude of the government alone has proved the proverbial straw for soldiers, particularly the retired. In their ‘peaceful’ agitation mode, they have begun to submit their memoranda signed with their own blood. Mind you that in itself is a violent act. One wonders what it would be next to make the government(s) and civil society to listen and solve retired soldiers’ grievances.
The argument by one panellist (a bureaucrat) that cabinet secretary, chiefs and others drawing ‘fixed scales’ are only getting 50 percent of pay last drawn was utter hogwash. Cleverly done, it made all pre 2006 retirees the beneficiary. The dispensation gave benefit to almost 70 percent of the entire IAS cadre recruited directly, commencing 1947! The benefit would not go to beyond double digits for those who served the armed forces. And in any case, what stopped the government from ‘fixed scales’ for every rank of the Indian Army, from 2nd Lieutenant to Lt General (40000 to 80000)!
The biggest fiddle of 6th CPC was sadly missed out. Historically, whether during British Raj or post independence, every rank was paid pension according to one’s rank; higher the rank, higher the pension. In one stroke, in 6th CPC, ranks were done away with and minimum of “pay band”, irrespective of the rank, introduced! From lt colonel to lt general, all get the same basic pension, with minor differences introduced for argument’s sake and to technically defeat Apex Court judgements. One begins to wonder as to what kind of human beings are there in our bureaucracy and the government!
OROP was a simple in its inception, when it came up in the eighties. Many governments agreed for its implementation. In a contemporaneous environment, with every delay (over decades now) and the governments’ baulking at Supreme Court judgments in favour of retired soldiers, the issue is now seen as one of great injustice, hence highly emotive too. It would be a folly to let the matter linger any further.
Suggested Solution.
1. Government should immediately obey and implement judgements, orders and instructions passed by Indian Supreme Court, as it pertains to pay and pension of retired armed forces personnel, in LETTER AND SPIRIT, and not just technically to hoodwink the Apex Court and affected people.
2. As an interim measure, the government should immediately place and implement “Fixed Formula” for basic pensions of retired soldiers, at a scale of say between 85-90 percent of basic pension drawn by each rank retiring after 2006. The said ‘fixed formula’ should then be further refined by the next pay commission, central or for armed forces, on the lines of OROP.
3. Armed Forces Pay Commission for serving and retired soldiers to be convened by January 2011, delinking it from any periodicity and to be held on the basis of inflation and cost index. Report to be submitted by June 2011 and implemented by December 2011, after approval of Parliament in its winter session.
4. Military Pensions Formulae be converted into a law and built into The Constitution of India. (Away from any political or bureaucratic consideration).
5. Above formulations to ensure that armed forces remain apolitical, efficient and clean.
Suffice it to say that the present logjam must be broken, for the good of the country and the armed forces.
K Khorana
Maj Gen (Retd)
NDTV..Views by Brig Arun Mishra
From: arun mishra [mailto:arunkumar.mishra@hotmail.com]
Sent: 13 September 2010 03:02
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: RE: OROP PROGRAMME ON NDTV 24X7, FEED BACK - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 438/2010 - (H to Z-3) - 12 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
Dear Brig Kamboj,
I watched the show.
Army Cdrs who are entitled to OROP should be approached to lend their weight to the struggle. It is a well thought out move of IAS cadre to pluck them out of the batte by putting them in OROP cat.Unwillin
We should leave out the Honour part in this battle as it is a very intangible factor.
Using RTI we get the pension burden and connected population of both the retired IAS and retired Defence forces officers, then work out pro rata share of both. It will make public the paltry amount we get. Data and DATA alone will make you get the better of IAS cadre.
Form a RTI cell to get all sorts of relevant data from the govt.
(It is high time that IESM create a cell for ‘RTI’ and ‘Starred Questions’.
These two are very powerful tools of democracy.
Number of times this suggestion has come up, but IESM has not acted on it.
The forthcoming meeting of the IESM Core Group should discuss this issue and finalise the arrangements.
It is not necessary that all tasks must be performed by the Executive Committee of the IESM.
Kindly consider coopting other ESM and form this Cell. - Chander Kamboj)
Arun Mishra Brig (Retd)
C 9/9122, Vasant kunj, New Delhi 110070
+91 11 26896459, +91 9811803333
-----------
Sent: 13 September 2010 03:02
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: RE: OROP PROGRAMME ON NDTV 24X7, FEED BACK - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 438/2010 - (H to Z-3) - 12 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
Dear Brig Kamboj,
I watched the show.
Army Cdrs who are entitled to OROP should be approached to lend their weight to the struggle. It is a well thought out move of IAS cadre to pluck them out of the batte by putting them in OROP cat.Unwillin
We should leave out the Honour part in this battle as it is a very intangible factor.
Using RTI we get the pension burden and connected population of both the retired IAS and retired Defence forces officers, then work out pro rata share of both. It will make public the paltry amount we get. Data and DATA alone will make you get the better of IAS cadre.
Form a RTI cell to get all sorts of relevant data from the govt.
(It is high time that IESM create a cell for ‘RTI’ and ‘Starred Questions’.
These two are very powerful tools of democracy.
Number of times this suggestion has come up, but IESM has not acted on it.
The forthcoming meeting of the IESM Core Group should discuss this issue and finalise the arrangements.
It is not necessary that all tasks must be performed by the Executive Committee of the IESM.
Kindly consider coopting other ESM and form this Cell. - Chander Kamboj)
Arun Mishra Brig (Retd)
C 9/9122, Vasant kunj, New Delhi 110070
+91 11 26896459, +91 9811803333
-----------
NDTV..Views by Veteran Ram Gulrajani
From: Ram Gulrajani ramgulrajani@gmail.com
Sent: 13 September 2010 02:27
To: IESM Kamboj CS, Brig
Subject: WE THE PEOPLE
Dear Brig
Barkha Dutt's programme WE THE PEOPLE on the issue of OROP telecast on 12 Sep has kindled the conscience of the people of India. I watched this programme sitting among civilian at a gathering, where most of them were youngsters (age group 20-30) and no one knew that I was a retired armyman among them.
The reactions were strong and cent percent in favour of veterans. The case of Capt Sidhu stirred up strong emotions and I could see some wet eyes among young people. The no-nonsense stand of Mr. Rajeev Chandrashekhar, MP, was very much appreciated. One cheeky girl even had the temerity to say Chandrashekhar is as handsome as he is bold and forthright.
Many who were not aware of this simmering problem of OROP were now educated. Undoubtedly there was respect for soldiers, concern for their problems and the injustice meted out them for the difficult jobs they do.
I personally missed Gen Satbir Singh, who would have confronted the anti-OROP lobby with more facts and figures. This is to wish him quick recovery with prayers for his long and healthy life. His role in this movement is matchless.
Over-all, this programme from the stables of NDTV will have an impact on the government, babus and politicians. Its the beginning. Barkha's reaction to Gen Kadyan's remark that we are holding peaceful protests, was a muted testimony of the fear every babu must be hiding that what if this kind of trained force comes down to violent agitations.
I think the message has gone to all concerned loud and clear that defence forces are not happy and something need to be done fast.
Veteran Ram Gulrajani.
Sent: 13 September 2010 02:27
To: IESM Kamboj CS, Brig
Subject: WE THE PEOPLE
Dear Brig
Barkha Dutt's programme WE THE PEOPLE on the issue of OROP telecast on 12 Sep has kindled the conscience of the people of India. I watched this programme sitting among civilian at a gathering, where most of them were youngsters (age group 20-30) and no one knew that I was a retired armyman among them.
The reactions were strong and cent percent in favour of veterans. The case of Capt Sidhu stirred up strong emotions and I could see some wet eyes among young people. The no-nonsense stand of Mr. Rajeev Chandrashekhar, MP, was very much appreciated. One cheeky girl even had the temerity to say Chandrashekhar is as handsome as he is bold and forthright.
Many who were not aware of this simmering problem of OROP were now educated. Undoubtedly there was respect for soldiers, concern for their problems and the injustice meted out them for the difficult jobs they do.
I personally missed Gen Satbir Singh, who would have confronted the anti-OROP lobby with more facts and figures. This is to wish him quick recovery with prayers for his long and healthy life. His role in this movement is matchless.
Over-all, this programme from the stables of NDTV will have an impact on the government, babus and politicians. Its the beginning. Barkha's reaction to Gen Kadyan's remark that we are holding peaceful protests, was a muted testimony of the fear every babu must be hiding that what if this kind of trained force comes down to violent agitations.
I think the message has gone to all concerned loud and clear that defence forces are not happy and something need to be done fast.
Veteran Ram Gulrajani.
NDTV...Views by Col BK Rai
From: Bhanu Kumar Rai [mailto:bkrai2005@yahoo.com]
Sent: 13 September 2010 07:16
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: Re: OROP PROGRAMME ON NDTV 24X7, FEED BACK - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 438/2010 - (H to Z-2) - 12 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
I feel that the programme anchored by Barkha was very good and this initiative is on the right track.
We should contact Arnav Goswami of Times Today and Rahul Kanwal of Headlines Today after a few weeks and try to have a couple of rounds.
I spent my formative years in the Army and then became a technocrat and also a pseudo bureaucrat, then an advisor to leading business houses for several years, I tend to think a bit differently from thoroughbred Soldiers.
I feel that making comparison with IAS/IPS is demeaning. It opens the Babu's rule book and confirms what is not openly stated, and clearly accepted by the Congress Party that the bureaucrats form the basic frame of the Government and all others are essential but inferior.
We should strive at emphasising the unique work culture and the values of the Armed Forces and strive for a separate Pay Commission now.
The attitude of the spokesman of the congress: Mr Davar was very disappointing.
He thinks that it is axiomatic to wait for a few more years for the next pay commission.
Why?
It appears that he came with a brief from the AICC.
Also, as submitted by me earlier we must remain apolitical and not align with any party while welcoming support from enlightened politians like Mr Rajjev Chandrasekhar MP as individual leaders.
The alignment with BJP only hardens the attitude of other parties opposed to them.
-BK Rai
(Col BK Rai, Former Secretary to Government of India, 3rd Graduates Course of the IMA, Premature Retirement in 1970)
Sent: 13 September 2010 07:16
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: Re: OROP PROGRAMME ON NDTV 24X7, FEED BACK - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 438/2010 - (H to Z-2) - 12 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
I feel that the programme anchored by Barkha was very good and this initiative is on the right track.
We should contact Arnav Goswami of Times Today and Rahul Kanwal of Headlines Today after a few weeks and try to have a couple of rounds.
I spent my formative years in the Army and then became a technocrat and also a pseudo bureaucrat, then an advisor to leading business houses for several years, I tend to think a bit differently from thoroughbred Soldiers.
I feel that making comparison with IAS/IPS is demeaning. It opens the Babu's rule book and confirms what is not openly stated, and clearly accepted by the Congress Party that the bureaucrats form the basic frame of the Government and all others are essential but inferior.
We should strive at emphasising the unique work culture and the values of the Armed Forces and strive for a separate Pay Commission now.
The attitude of the spokesman of the congress: Mr Davar was very disappointing.
He thinks that it is axiomatic to wait for a few more years for the next pay commission.
Why?
It appears that he came with a brief from the AICC.
Also, as submitted by me earlier we must remain apolitical and not align with any party while welcoming support from enlightened politians like Mr Rajjev Chandrasekhar MP as individual leaders.
The alignment with BJP only hardens the attitude of other parties opposed to them.
-BK Rai
(Col BK Rai, Former Secretary to Government of India, 3rd Graduates Course of the IMA, Premature Retirement in 1970)
WHAT WE NEED TO DO NOW by Amit Bhadhuri
From: abhadhuri924@googlemail.com
To: kamboj_cs@yahoo.co.in
CC: RSingh305@aol.com; ajbjaini@hotmail.com; tashraj@rediffmail.com
Subject: WHAT WE NEED TO DO NOW
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 09:59:19 +0100
Dear Brig. Kamboj Sir,
I had the opportunities to watch the long awaited "We the People" programme 4-1/2 hours before the viewers in India.
It was a good programme and the good feelings I have on this occasion, that, NDTV certainly broke its traditions.
What made me extremely happy, that, we still have a few good MPs like Mr. Chandrasekhar. He has a dynamic and formidable personality, has a very strong conviction and an excellent communicator. He truly stands out from those many
parliamentarians, who we see regularly in the parliament behaving no better than street thugs (sadly they are mostly from certain states), bring shame to the nation and always a helpless Speaker to deal with them. Such behavior from parliamentarians is simply unthinkable even for a minute in the Western democracy or where I live. And until we fill up that gap between the east and west, we will simply stay behind.
We need to develop a good rapport with Mr. Chandrasekhar. We need to engage preferably a contact point with excellent communication skills from us to have regular contacts with him. We need to identify more such MPs and work with them. We are not in KHAKI anymore, therefore, we should be proud to expressing our political views honestly in the best interests of our country because "Nothing is above the country". We need to work and support the
Pro-nationalistic political parties, who support our causes. Then only politicians will recognize the value of Armed and Para-Military forces instead of just using them 24+7, a skilled practice of the politicians in power since 1947.
It was heartening to watch Gen. Oberoi willingness for his grandson joining the Army.
Finally, I only hope, May All Mighty offer some common sense to Prof. Shah, Mr. Davar and Mrs. Liberhan if not for IESM but for the sake of the country.
With warm regards,
Amit
Amit Bhadhuri
Former CISF Officer (settled in UK)
To: kamboj_cs@yahoo.co.in
CC: RSingh305@aol.com; ajbjaini@hotmail.com; tashraj@rediffmail.com
Subject: WHAT WE NEED TO DO NOW
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 09:59:19 +0100
Dear Brig. Kamboj Sir,
I had the opportunities to watch the long awaited "We the People" programme 4-1/2 hours before the viewers in India.
It was a good programme and the good feelings I have on this occasion, that, NDTV certainly broke its traditions.
What made me extremely happy, that, we still have a few good MPs like Mr. Chandrasekhar. He has a dynamic and formidable personality, has a very strong conviction and an excellent communicator. He truly stands out from those many
parliamentarians, who we see regularly in the parliament behaving no better than street thugs (sadly they are mostly from certain states), bring shame to the nation and always a helpless Speaker to deal with them. Such behavior from parliamentarians is simply unthinkable even for a minute in the Western democracy or where I live. And until we fill up that gap between the east and west, we will simply stay behind.
We need to develop a good rapport with Mr. Chandrasekhar. We need to engage preferably a contact point with excellent communication skills from us to have regular contacts with him. We need to identify more such MPs and work with them. We are not in KHAKI anymore, therefore, we should be proud to expressing our political views honestly in the best interests of our country because "Nothing is above the country". We need to work and support the
Pro-nationalistic political parties, who support our causes. Then only politicians will recognize the value of Armed and Para-Military forces instead of just using them 24+7, a skilled practice of the politicians in power since 1947.
It was heartening to watch Gen. Oberoi willingness for his grandson joining the Army.
Finally, I only hope, May All Mighty offer some common sense to Prof. Shah, Mr. Davar and Mrs. Liberhan if not for IESM but for the sake of the country.
With warm regards,
Amit
Amit Bhadhuri
Former CISF Officer (settled in UK)
NDTV....Views by Sgt.S.Kanthiah
From: Kandiah S [mailto:kandiahs81@yahoo.com]
Sent: 13 September 2010 09:42
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: Re: OROP PROGRAMME ON NDTV 24X7, FEED BACK - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 438/2010 - (H to Z-3) - 12 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
Dear Sir,
I was fully merged with the NDTV show on Sunday. It was marvelously arranged and conducted by our Mdm.Burka Dutt, Hats off to her. She was full of enthusiasm and action, throwing valuable questions to the participants.The show has awakened many of our ESM brothers.
The way Capt.Siddu, with one artificial hand, was narrating his stories and fight for about 40 years to get his pension, that too a meager amount of Rs.240/, made me shed tears.
Then the Havildar expressing his inability to educate, bring up his children with his meager pay/pension also a pity. All these happenings are brought to light by this wonderful TV program.
Our beloved Generals Oberoi and Kadyan were very soft spoken to the actual facts to the public. We can not refrain from appreciating our MP. from Karnataka , Mr.Rajeev Chanraseker for his strong support for the veterans.
I thank one and all of the participants for their very useful and lively interactions in the Show. We hope to view such lively shows in future also to open the Eyes of MOD and the Govt, particularly the Bureaucrats..
With Greetings,
Ex.Sgt.S.Kanthiah, Liaison Officer.
Exwel Trust, Tirunelveli, Tamil Nadu
Sent: 13 September 2010 09:42
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: Re: OROP PROGRAMME ON NDTV 24X7, FEED BACK - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 438/2010 - (H to Z-3) - 12 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
Dear Sir,
I was fully merged with the NDTV show on Sunday. It was marvelously arranged and conducted by our Mdm.Burka Dutt, Hats off to her. She was full of enthusiasm and action, throwing valuable questions to the participants.The show has awakened many of our ESM brothers.
The way Capt.Siddu, with one artificial hand, was narrating his stories and fight for about 40 years to get his pension, that too a meager amount of Rs.240/, made me shed tears.
Then the Havildar expressing his inability to educate, bring up his children with his meager pay/pension also a pity. All these happenings are brought to light by this wonderful TV program.
Our beloved Generals Oberoi and Kadyan were very soft spoken to the actual facts to the public. We can not refrain from appreciating our MP. from Karnataka , Mr.Rajeev Chanraseker for his strong support for the veterans.
I thank one and all of the participants for their very useful and lively interactions in the Show. We hope to view such lively shows in future also to open the Eyes of MOD and the Govt, particularly the Bureaucrats..
With Greetings,
Ex.Sgt.S.Kanthiah, Liaison Officer.
Exwel Trust, Tirunelveli, Tamil Nadu
NDTV...Views by Cmde Lk Batra
From: lokesh batra [mailto:batra_lokesh@yahoo.com]
Sent: 13 September 2010 20:06
To: undisclosed recipients:
Subject: Please spread Link of Video of NDTV OROP Programme
14 September 2010
Dear Veterans,
In democracy it is healthy to express opinion and deabate the issue and that is exactly what happened.
But I confess Hony. Lt. (Veteran) Lt Pandey takes the cake.
In my view OROP programme was a Grand Success.
Any debate which is one sided is no good. It does not give food for thought to viewers. It gives the impression of being rigged.
In my interaction with media, when ever I release an RTI expose, I always insist on reporters to include the views/comments of other side/government functionaries.
Media is suppose to play neutral role.
However in OROP programme, NDTV clearly appeared to have favoured OROP cause.
First they organised the programme and had done a lot of research.
In invite list who favoured OROP outnumbered those against it.
In audience list (in studio) 100 percent invitees were for OROP and that too youth brigade in majority. I bet most of them were ‘Fauji Bachaa’s' and their friends. Good for us. Youth is the right choice to carry our message to the civil society.
Time and again the anchor (Barkha) cross examined those who made points against OROP. Davar was badly ticked when used the word ‘sympathise’.
Probably those who have participated in such media programmes in the past and have experience, would know that it is not fish market. However in this case, those present in the studio during recording know passions were running high when ever any one spoke against OROP.
To restrict the telecast to allotted time of 50 minutes, the editing was inevitable.
I reiterate the programme facilitated a 'Leap Forward' to our cause.
I must say, we have to be tolerant to criticism if we have to create Public Opinion for OROP cause.
I humbly propose circulating the link of NDTV Programme on OROP to the civil society.
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/we-the-people-war-veterans-still-fighting/163348
Please do that by sending the link to your contacts in the civil world with your write up. Request them to pass it on…. And make a long chain...
I have posted it to all my contacts in India and abroad and also various RTI Groups. Soon this link will be posted on Face book and other social networking sites.
These are my views and I am open to criticism and suggestions.
All my communications are in Public Domain.
Best
Lokesh
{Commodore Lokesh. K. Batra (retd.)}
Social & RTI Activist
BringChange
www.bringchamge.org
Sent: 13 September 2010 20:06
To: undisclosed recipients:
Subject: Please spread Link of Video of NDTV OROP Programme
14 September 2010
Dear Veterans,
In democracy it is healthy to express opinion and deabate the issue and that is exactly what happened.
But I confess Hony. Lt. (Veteran) Lt Pandey takes the cake.
In my view OROP programme was a Grand Success.
Any debate which is one sided is no good. It does not give food for thought to viewers. It gives the impression of being rigged.
In my interaction with media, when ever I release an RTI expose, I always insist on reporters to include the views/comments of other side/government functionaries.
Media is suppose to play neutral role.
However in OROP programme, NDTV clearly appeared to have favoured OROP cause.
First they organised the programme and had done a lot of research.
In invite list who favoured OROP outnumbered those against it.
In audience list (in studio) 100 percent invitees were for OROP and that too youth brigade in majority. I bet most of them were ‘Fauji Bachaa’s' and their friends. Good for us. Youth is the right choice to carry our message to the civil society.
Time and again the anchor (Barkha) cross examined those who made points against OROP. Davar was badly ticked when used the word ‘sympathise’.
Probably those who have participated in such media programmes in the past and have experience, would know that it is not fish market. However in this case, those present in the studio during recording know passions were running high when ever any one spoke against OROP.
To restrict the telecast to allotted time of 50 minutes, the editing was inevitable.
I reiterate the programme facilitated a 'Leap Forward' to our cause.
I must say, we have to be tolerant to criticism if we have to create Public Opinion for OROP cause.
I humbly propose circulating the link of NDTV Programme on OROP to the civil society.
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/we-the-people-war-veterans-still-fighting/163348
Please do that by sending the link to your contacts in the civil world with your write up. Request them to pass it on…. And make a long chain...
I have posted it to all my contacts in India and abroad and also various RTI Groups. Soon this link will be posted on Face book and other social networking sites.
These are my views and I am open to criticism and suggestions.
All my communications are in Public Domain.
Best
Lokesh
{Commodore Lokesh. K. Batra (retd.)}
Social & RTI Activist
BringChange
www.bringchamge.org
NDTV OROP SHOW -THE BACKSTAGE STORY AND ITS SIGNIFICANCE by Hony Lt Pandey
From: Kameshwar Pandey pandeykameshwar@gmail.com
Sent: 13 September 2010 10:20
To: rajkadyan@yahoo.com; satbirsm@gmail.com; Sharan Ahuja; kamboj_cs@yahoo.co.in; Kirit Joshipura; Aditya Jaini
Cc: CoreGpIESM@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
NDTV OROP SHOW -
THE BACKSTAGE STORY AND ITS SIGNIFICANCE
My Dear Respected Sirs and Colleagues,
In my opinion , the recent NDTV show on OROP was a success in many ways. Thanks to the internet, mostly everyone on RMS has been able to see the recording of the show which was finally aired after significant edit. The show has been already discussed, criticized, appreciated and everything in between. We should, however, realize that the show was conducted by NDTV (a standard sponsor funded and government pleasing TV News Channel) and not by IESM. So the participants had little control on the way it was being conducted, IESM included.
What I wanted to draw everybody's attention to is the real scenario at the studio while the said program was being recorded. I would also mention why the knowledge of the studio environment is important for everyone to know.
There is a very specific term in the media fraternity known as 'Sensitization'. What it means is that a certain group of people is 'sensitized' or made aware of the issues, problems and challenges faced by another community/group/part of the public. NGOs, corporations and even governments spend significant sums of money to mould the opinion of the target masses in their favor by doing such campaigns.
Now at the NDTV studio, something similar to that, on a smaller scale, was carried out by Col Joshipura Sir and self before the program started. We made small huddles of other participants of the discussion and told them what OROP really is and why its such a gross injustice towards our veterans. Especially the younger lot in the audiences seemed to understand this concept very easily. Probably because they have an open mind and do not have any vested interests in actions against the defence forces.
What we were able to accomplish by this, even before the program started, was that almost everyone in the studio (minus the vested interests) was already on our side. You had to see it to believe it. One word, and I mean one word, against OROP or the veterans was not tolerated by the crowd. This was primarily the reason why Capt. Davar was unable to complete even one single sentence properly. And why the others (the lady IAS and others) were scared to say anything against us. They were making attempts but they were scared. You can see it on their faces.
The environment in the studio was mostly split in two emotions -- Anger and Disappointment. Disappointment that the government which is supposed to take care of the military that takes care of the nation is so brutally ignoring the very men and women that gave the nation the best years of their lives. Anger - because if something is not done soon, something is got to give...
Gen Kadyan and Sh. Uday Bhaskar as well as Sh. Rajeev Chandrashekhar were calm, composed and organized like they always are and put forward the points in an effective way despite provocation by the bureaucrats and co. Self, with help from the audience, provided some artillery fire!
What you all must also know and understand is the fact that since certain of the panel's individuals were direct representatives of the government (Capt Davar included) and so they were being given a LOT LOT LOT of footage. It was easily visible. On the contrary when our people were speaking, they were getting the mic literally for seconds! It was frustrating but hey, you have to make the best of what you have, right!
Now you can ask me why is this important at all? When it was not captured by the cameras and not aired on television why is this even worth talking about.
To answer that, I will have to direct your attention to another specific term used in advertising. Its called 'viral marketing'. This is a well known fact that viral marketing is on of the most effective and fastest spreading modes of publicity. What it means is that news/opinion is spread virally from one person to another then to another then to another. Also known as word of mouth publicity.
Now NDTV can edit out the conversations which were taking place in the background and thorugh mice. They can choose to not air the parts many of us spoke. But what they cannot take away from us is the stir we created in those 50 or so people present in that room. They cannot take away the fresh and new perspective and knowledge that they now have about the armed forces, the government, how we are being treated and the white lies the government sells. especially the younger people and other ESM not yet associated with IESM.
And guess what, this is going to spread virally. From one person to another from one mouth to another. From a youth to another youth. And while this might seem or sound insignificant at this time, this will go a long way in strengthening our movement from the inside. To strengthen the roots of this mission. To connect with the youth and the general public.
Speaking to people at the studio was specially effective because they were all well educated and well connected people and probably keep interacting with many people. So that will help.
Once again the program, in my opinion was very successful. Of course, as with everything, it could have been better as some have pointed out. But I think it was good and I think the message was sent across. I do hope that such programs keep happening and that we reach our goal at the earliest.
I thank you for taking the time to go through this email. Much appreciated.
Yours truly,
Kameshwar
--
Kameshwar Pandey
Sub/Maj Hony. Lt. (Veteran)
230, Pocket-1,
DDA SFS Flats, Sector-1,
Dwarka, New Delhi - 110 075
Cell : +91-9811059825
Home: +91-11-3296 6701
email: pandeykameshwar@gmail.com
Sent: 13 September 2010 10:20
To: rajkadyan@yahoo.com; satbirsm@gmail.com; Sharan Ahuja; kamboj_cs@yahoo.co.in; Kirit Joshipura; Aditya Jaini
Cc: CoreGpIESM@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
NDTV OROP SHOW -
THE BACKSTAGE STORY AND ITS SIGNIFICANCE
My Dear Respected Sirs and Colleagues,
In my opinion , the recent NDTV show on OROP was a success in many ways. Thanks to the internet, mostly everyone on RMS has been able to see the recording of the show which was finally aired after significant edit. The show has been already discussed, criticized, appreciated and everything in between. We should, however, realize that the show was conducted by NDTV (a standard sponsor funded and government pleasing TV News Channel) and not by IESM. So the participants had little control on the way it was being conducted, IESM included.
What I wanted to draw everybody's attention to is the real scenario at the studio while the said program was being recorded. I would also mention why the knowledge of the studio environment is important for everyone to know.
There is a very specific term in the media fraternity known as 'Sensitization'. What it means is that a certain group of people is 'sensitized' or made aware of the issues, problems and challenges faced by another community/group/part of the public. NGOs, corporations and even governments spend significant sums of money to mould the opinion of the target masses in their favor by doing such campaigns.
Now at the NDTV studio, something similar to that, on a smaller scale, was carried out by Col Joshipura Sir and self before the program started. We made small huddles of other participants of the discussion and told them what OROP really is and why its such a gross injustice towards our veterans. Especially the younger lot in the audiences seemed to understand this concept very easily. Probably because they have an open mind and do not have any vested interests in actions against the defence forces.
What we were able to accomplish by this, even before the program started, was that almost everyone in the studio (minus the vested interests) was already on our side. You had to see it to believe it. One word, and I mean one word, against OROP or the veterans was not tolerated by the crowd. This was primarily the reason why Capt. Davar was unable to complete even one single sentence properly. And why the others (the lady IAS and others) were scared to say anything against us. They were making attempts but they were scared. You can see it on their faces.
The environment in the studio was mostly split in two emotions -- Anger and Disappointment. Disappointment that the government which is supposed to take care of the military that takes care of the nation is so brutally ignoring the very men and women that gave the nation the best years of their lives. Anger - because if something is not done soon, something is got to give...
Gen Kadyan and Sh. Uday Bhaskar as well as Sh. Rajeev Chandrashekhar were calm, composed and organized like they always are and put forward the points in an effective way despite provocation by the bureaucrats and co. Self, with help from the audience, provided some artillery fire!
What you all must also know and understand is the fact that since certain of the panel's individuals were direct representatives of the government (Capt Davar included) and so they were being given a LOT LOT LOT of footage. It was easily visible. On the contrary when our people were speaking, they were getting the mic literally for seconds! It was frustrating but hey, you have to make the best of what you have, right!
Now you can ask me why is this important at all? When it was not captured by the cameras and not aired on television why is this even worth talking about.
To answer that, I will have to direct your attention to another specific term used in advertising. Its called 'viral marketing'. This is a well known fact that viral marketing is on of the most effective and fastest spreading modes of publicity. What it means is that news/opinion is spread virally from one person to another then to another then to another. Also known as word of mouth publicity.
Now NDTV can edit out the conversations which were taking place in the background and thorugh mice. They can choose to not air the parts many of us spoke. But what they cannot take away from us is the stir we created in those 50 or so people present in that room. They cannot take away the fresh and new perspective and knowledge that they now have about the armed forces, the government, how we are being treated and the white lies the government sells. especially the younger people and other ESM not yet associated with IESM.
And guess what, this is going to spread virally. From one person to another from one mouth to another. From a youth to another youth. And while this might seem or sound insignificant at this time, this will go a long way in strengthening our movement from the inside. To strengthen the roots of this mission. To connect with the youth and the general public.
Speaking to people at the studio was specially effective because they were all well educated and well connected people and probably keep interacting with many people. So that will help.
Once again the program, in my opinion was very successful. Of course, as with everything, it could have been better as some have pointed out. But I think it was good and I think the message was sent across. I do hope that such programs keep happening and that we reach our goal at the earliest.
I thank you for taking the time to go through this email. Much appreciated.
Yours truly,
Kameshwar
--
Kameshwar Pandey
Sub/Maj Hony. Lt. (Veteran)
230, Pocket-1,
DDA SFS Flats, Sector-1,
Dwarka, New Delhi - 110 075
Cell : +91-9811059825
Home: +91-11-3296 6701
email: pandeykameshwar@gmail.com
NDTV..Views by Maj Gen Raj Mehta
From: raj mehta raj_s_mehta12@yahoo.com
Sent: 12 September 2010 22:04
To: REPORT MY SIGNAL (CS Kamboj)
Subject: OROP ON WE,THE PEOPLE SEP 12, 2010
Dear Sir,
The Barkha Dutt show last night can be seen at different levels of objective scrutiny.
Let me start with the most important first. We,The People is a well followed program in terms of TRP rating, bureaucratic and political eyeballs that watch the program, and the iconic standards attained by it over the years (though some would argue that the format, with its closet full of the same old "experts" and social gadflies that are part of the Delhi glitterati/chatterati, is becoming stale and needs a serious makeover). Barkha is remarkably gifted, feisty and loves the camera but it is only once in a while that she allows content to override her by now well patented, sometimes hectoring, even intimidating presentation style.
Yesterday, though, she was the Barkha of old who delivered magic during the Kargil War. She sensitively allowed content to override her basic "take charge" personality and with great visual, emotional and mental impact.
I do think, sir, that, with one fell swoop, she has given OROP more visibility and intensity than our years of struggle since 1982 to make Governance aware of its legitimacy.
Thats the good Barkha of old; the spritely, effervescent motor mouth and intense storm trooper who covered Kargil to world class standards (I suspect she really set standards during that coverage); that at a time when (as she mentioned in a post-war interview) she was menstruating, closeted in a bunker with bravehearts some of whom later died.
The next in line for scrutiny were Capt Sidhu, the amputee Paratrooper brave heart. The program rightly gave him a standing ovation, and, in so doing, panned the sheepish faces of the bureaucrats present to put up the Governments poorly choreographed, obtuse, single point defence. They appeared taken aback by the spontaneous response of the studio audience in empathising with this brave soldier and his 30 year old fight for justice.
Gen Vijay Oberoi was his usual assured self and was a treat to watch, though the program constraints made him speak more on behalf of the war wounded than on OROP. His contribution on OROP came more by way of interjections than original content.
(Gen Vijay Oberoi is President War Wounded Foundation. He has been fighting for the dues of war wounded with the Government and in the Courts. One must appreciate that first deserving cases are the war widows followed by war wounded. The rest of the ESM can only come after these categories – Chander Kamboj).
On a par really, were the steller contributions of the Independant MP, Mr Rajeev Chandrasekhar and Mr Manvendra Singh, a TA officer and journalist (he is the son of Mr Jaswant Singh of the BJP). It was a delight to see them tear the Governments specious (and the Congress representative, Capt Davar's) arguments to shreds and with logic rather than emotion.
The IESM stand on OROP was put across with dignity and quiet assurance by Gen Kadian, though one would have wished for some forceful clarifications from him on the issues being raised by the out-of-sync "expert" Mr Shah, Ms Indu, the senior financial bureaucrat and Capt Davar.
I do feel sir, that the gains are that the case now has the nation's attention, rather than just some people. We have to thank the IESM for that, as well as NDTV for providing the platform for giving the issue truly national coverage. Barkha Dutt, a big thank you.
The areas of improvement are clear: Capt Davar's deliberate reference to the fact (unchallenged by the panel) that IESL was "happy" with the awards by Government implies that we need greater unity between our ESM lobbies.
The clearly visible hard stands displayed those representing the UPA viewpoint (including the unfeeling economic "expert") means that a long battle is ahead and needs great circumspection as well as a well thought out plan to win the OROP campaign instead of yesterdays battle.
I do also feel that our key points in favour of OROP need to be prioritized and put down in precise language that every one; the Government, Supreme Court, common man, ESM can all understand. Once finalised, these points should be our common user language for getting OROP through.
We also need to have irrefutable figures on who all have OROP benifits. It appeared to me that we need rather more research on this issue.
With warm regards,
Gen Raj Mehta (Mohali, Punjab)
Sent: 12 September 2010 22:04
To: REPORT MY SIGNAL (CS Kamboj)
Subject: OROP ON WE,THE PEOPLE SEP 12, 2010
Dear Sir,
The Barkha Dutt show last night can be seen at different levels of objective scrutiny.
Let me start with the most important first. We,The People is a well followed program in terms of TRP rating, bureaucratic and political eyeballs that watch the program, and the iconic standards attained by it over the years (though some would argue that the format, with its closet full of the same old "experts" and social gadflies that are part of the Delhi glitterati/chatterati, is becoming stale and needs a serious makeover). Barkha is remarkably gifted, feisty and loves the camera but it is only once in a while that she allows content to override her by now well patented, sometimes hectoring, even intimidating presentation style.
Yesterday, though, she was the Barkha of old who delivered magic during the Kargil War. She sensitively allowed content to override her basic "take charge" personality and with great visual, emotional and mental impact.
I do think, sir, that, with one fell swoop, she has given OROP more visibility and intensity than our years of struggle since 1982 to make Governance aware of its legitimacy.
Thats the good Barkha of old; the spritely, effervescent motor mouth and intense storm trooper who covered Kargil to world class standards (I suspect she really set standards during that coverage); that at a time when (as she mentioned in a post-war interview) she was menstruating, closeted in a bunker with bravehearts some of whom later died.
The next in line for scrutiny were Capt Sidhu, the amputee Paratrooper brave heart. The program rightly gave him a standing ovation, and, in so doing, panned the sheepish faces of the bureaucrats present to put up the Governments poorly choreographed, obtuse, single point defence. They appeared taken aback by the spontaneous response of the studio audience in empathising with this brave soldier and his 30 year old fight for justice.
Gen Vijay Oberoi was his usual assured self and was a treat to watch, though the program constraints made him speak more on behalf of the war wounded than on OROP. His contribution on OROP came more by way of interjections than original content.
(Gen Vijay Oberoi is President War Wounded Foundation. He has been fighting for the dues of war wounded with the Government and in the Courts. One must appreciate that first deserving cases are the war widows followed by war wounded. The rest of the ESM can only come after these categories – Chander Kamboj).
On a par really, were the steller contributions of the Independant MP, Mr Rajeev Chandrasekhar and Mr Manvendra Singh, a TA officer and journalist (he is the son of Mr Jaswant Singh of the BJP). It was a delight to see them tear the Governments specious (and the Congress representative, Capt Davar's) arguments to shreds and with logic rather than emotion.
The IESM stand on OROP was put across with dignity and quiet assurance by Gen Kadian, though one would have wished for some forceful clarifications from him on the issues being raised by the out-of-sync "expert" Mr Shah, Ms Indu, the senior financial bureaucrat and Capt Davar.
I do feel sir, that the gains are that the case now has the nation's attention, rather than just some people. We have to thank the IESM for that, as well as NDTV for providing the platform for giving the issue truly national coverage. Barkha Dutt, a big thank you.
The areas of improvement are clear: Capt Davar's deliberate reference to the fact (unchallenged by the panel) that IESL was "happy" with the awards by Government implies that we need greater unity between our ESM lobbies.
The clearly visible hard stands displayed those representing the UPA viewpoint (including the unfeeling economic "expert") means that a long battle is ahead and needs great circumspection as well as a well thought out plan to win the OROP campaign instead of yesterdays battle.
I do also feel that our key points in favour of OROP need to be prioritized and put down in precise language that every one; the Government, Supreme Court, common man, ESM can all understand. Once finalised, these points should be our common user language for getting OROP through.
We also need to have irrefutable figures on who all have OROP benifits. It appeared to me that we need rather more research on this issue.
With warm regards,
Gen Raj Mehta (Mohali, Punjab)
NDTV ...Views by Brig CS Kamboj
Dear Friends,
Jai Hind.
It is very heartening to see that very large number of members have responded and emailed their views.
Excepting a few emails, I am reproducing all the emails, received so far, giving views of ESM on the programme on NDTV.
I apologise to the members whose emails are not included here. The reasons for not including those emails are as under –
1. Some emails received are long trailing emails – having 8 to 10 emails – one below the other.
I am sorry I do not have the patience to handle such long trailing emails.
2. The cryptic one-liner emails have also been left out.
3. While it is true that we all would have liked to see more ESM issues being covered – but please appreciate that the ESM attending the NDTV show did not have control over it. Also that many things covered were edited out. (I will give the information of edited out later).
Therefore, some of you totally condemning the programme and the ESM participants – I think have been most unfair to those who worked so hard to prepare. And I challenge those who have condemned the speakers out right – they could not have done any better. It is very easy to sit outside and comment.
As rude emails would have hurt the feelings of those who worked hard and took part in the programme, such emails are not being circulated by "REPORT MY SIGNAL" . I once again apologise to the authors of such emails.
4. Some of these rude emails did have a few valid points, which in any case have reached all concerned.
An extract from the emails not included here, is reproduced below, which will give you some indication of the editing –
One of the Remarks from A Core Group Member in an email.
The only one thing we could have additionally done to 'Shut Up' Indu Liberhan when she said that OROP is 'Illegal' is to have asked her –
1. If Illegal, why have Parliamentary Committees on Defence been repeatedly 'R' (recommended) OROP ?
2. If illegal then why are judges of SC & HC ( the so called custodians of justice) themselves taking OROP ?
-----------------
Response By Lt Gen Kadyan by email.
It indeed was said, but was edited (and not telecast).
---------
Almost all the emails below have highly appreciated the programme on NDTV.
So let us all cheer up and congratulate the participants of the programme.
WELL DONE SIRS.
In service of Indian Military Veterans
Chander Kamboj.
-------------
Jai Hind.
It is very heartening to see that very large number of members have responded and emailed their views.
Excepting a few emails, I am reproducing all the emails, received so far, giving views of ESM on the programme on NDTV.
I apologise to the members whose emails are not included here. The reasons for not including those emails are as under –
1. Some emails received are long trailing emails – having 8 to 10 emails – one below the other.
I am sorry I do not have the patience to handle such long trailing emails.
2. The cryptic one-liner emails have also been left out.
3. While it is true that we all would have liked to see more ESM issues being covered – but please appreciate that the ESM attending the NDTV show did not have control over it. Also that many things covered were edited out. (I will give the information of edited out later).
Therefore, some of you totally condemning the programme and the ESM participants – I think have been most unfair to those who worked so hard to prepare. And I challenge those who have condemned the speakers out right – they could not have done any better. It is very easy to sit outside and comment.
As rude emails would have hurt the feelings of those who worked hard and took part in the programme, such emails are not being circulated by "REPORT MY SIGNAL" . I once again apologise to the authors of such emails.
4. Some of these rude emails did have a few valid points, which in any case have reached all concerned.
An extract from the emails not included here, is reproduced below, which will give you some indication of the editing –
One of the Remarks from A Core Group Member in an email.
The only one thing we could have additionally done to 'Shut Up' Indu Liberhan when she said that OROP is 'Illegal' is to have asked her –
1. If Illegal, why have Parliamentary Committees on Defence been repeatedly 'R' (recommended) OROP ?
2. If illegal then why are judges of SC & HC ( the so called custodians of justice) themselves taking OROP ?
-----------------
Response By Lt Gen Kadyan by email.
It indeed was said, but was edited (and not telecast).
---------
Almost all the emails below have highly appreciated the programme on NDTV.
So let us all cheer up and congratulate the participants of the programme.
WELL DONE SIRS.
In service of Indian Military Veterans
Chander Kamboj.
-------------
NDTV ..Views by Col DP Gupta
From: dharam gupta [mailto:prakashdpg@yahoo.com]
Sent: 12 September 2010 21:18
To: CS Kamboj
Subject: OROP We the people
My dear Brig,
It was an eye opener not only to us the Armed Forces Veteran but for the
people of India. Our representatives did a wonderful discussion and rebuffed
Capt Dawar's claims.
i feel that we need to find answers to the following points to push our
case through:-
- legal tenability of OROP as the Govt is harping on it.
- Answer to the proposal that give greater compensation rather than asking
for OROP
- counter the argument of the Prof .... that under one roof ,son and
father will have different pensions. it is law of nature
(I saw the programme on internet. I feel that this was the only correct
point spoken by Professor Shaw.
Rest whatever he spoke - were statements by a heartless and brainless
person.
I guess he is employed by the Babus as a financial adviser and is on their
pay roll.
When one raises a point at such high level discussions – the likely
response of others should be anticipated, appreciated and if the response is
not likely to be favourable – such a point should not be raised.
The point about father and son emoluments was a not weighed before speaking
it out.
The person who raised the point desrved that answer.
– Chander Kamboj)
All the speakers for Armed Forces case need congratulations.
Sh Chandrashekhar, MP needs special appreciation.
Col D P Gupta
Sent: 12 September 2010 21:18
To: CS Kamboj
Subject: OROP We the people
My dear Brig,
It was an eye opener not only to us the Armed Forces Veteran but for the
people of India. Our representatives did a wonderful discussion and rebuffed
Capt Dawar's claims.
i feel that we need to find answers to the following points to push our
case through:-
- legal tenability of OROP as the Govt is harping on it.
- Answer to the proposal that give greater compensation rather than asking
for OROP
- counter the argument of the Prof .... that under one roof ,son and
father will have different pensions. it is law of nature
(I saw the programme on internet. I feel that this was the only correct
point spoken by Professor Shaw.
Rest whatever he spoke - were statements by a heartless and brainless
person.
I guess he is employed by the Babus as a financial adviser and is on their
pay roll.
When one raises a point at such high level discussions – the likely
response of others should be anticipated, appreciated and if the response is
not likely to be favourable – such a point should not be raised.
The point about father and son emoluments was a not weighed before speaking
it out.
The person who raised the point desrved that answer.
– Chander Kamboj)
All the speakers for Armed Forces case need congratulations.
Sh Chandrashekhar, MP needs special appreciation.
Col D P Gupta
NDTV ..Views by unknown Veteran
From: swastikgreens [mailto:swastikgreens@airtelmail.in]
Sent: 12 September 2010 12:25
To: barkha@ndtv.com
Cc: Kamboj Chander; rajkadyan@yahoo.com
Subject: OROP. DENIAL.......A FEINT TO FOOL THE NATION AND HOPING TO PLAY
FIDDLE WHILE...
Dear Barkha,
You have so endeared yourself to the forces by your presence and portrayal
at Kargil that we would like to adopt you as a daughter or the Friend of the
Armed Forces and would recommend the title and permit of a WAR REPORTER.
The furore or the drama enacted to deny OROP or the legitimate disbursement
of awards by the AFTs.Can you ever imagine our own ministry harassing its
own wards? Can it be lieved that the PM or the RRM are oblivious of the fact
that combat units are functioning with 40% of officer strength/Naturally
NCOs &JCOs would be required to perform the duties of the most crucial level
in action which requires the hot blooded,cool thinking and daredevils like
VIKRAM.
To top it the terrorists and separatists object to NCOS or Naiks having to
open fire to disperse hooligans threatening the civilian life and property
and communication systems.Do they expect the NCO to come and salute the
miscreants and request them to become peaceful and get himself killed in the
process.It is already too late not do everything possible to attract
officer material into the forces otherwise the deficiency ofcombat
capability coupled with lack of proper respect and honour of the forces and
veterans will seriously jeopodise defence of the nation.
Can any one ever believe that mighty financial power INDIA cant offer
attractive pay package or OROP to safe guard itself?
Money or the mode of working or disbursement can never be the problem.
An individual must get entitled to a basic minimum pension esp disability
the day he sets out from his house for training centre to join as a recruit,
The rest of the personnel get pension per year of service or part thereof
and rank pension,DA,HARD AREA allowance, combat allowance same as is offered
to civilians being posted to Afganistan etc.THIS WILL TO SOME EXTENT ADDRESS
THE PROBLEM OFNOT GETTING THE SELECTION RADE PROMOTINS.As at least an
officer will not be hurt financially,.This should get uniformly revised
whenever it is done irrespective of the date of retirement for all.THAT IS
ALL THAT OROP IS ALL ABOUT,Happy veterans will love to continue the
tradition of sending their sons to parental units if they are sure they will
be looked after and honoured.The debate shows that a Havildar found it
difficult to look after his family with mere 15,000/- But this is the amount
Majors OF Pre 2006 retirement getting old age has bigger problems that only
money can solve.
The mindset that the Britishers left behind that Indians are not capable of
good governance and a strong and capable Armed Forces will take over soon
Nehru,Menon and otherBrown Sahibs believed this like gospel..Well if it has
not happened in last 60 years it will not happen in future also.But let us
get wiser and not let our guard down.
More than ever before we need strong and effectively functional armed
forces,The proof bof the pudding.....Let Davar proclaim what direction has
the Army taken in terms of manpower or equipment capabilities.We cant say we
cant manage our security, which is a real demon, so let us ousorce it to
OBAMA.He can do it cheaper with his drones and no one will complain since it
will be Amercan drones killing suspects Alternately LET US PULL UP OUR
SOCKS,STOP BICKERING AND BUILD UP A REAL STRONG AND FULLY MANPOWERED FORCE
OF OUR OWN.FULL STRENGTH OF OFFICERS AND NO REQUEST FOR PREMATURE
RETIREMENTS.
THE Congress Party having been at the helm of affairs for 2 terms will have
a lot to pay for, because of its inability to provide a secure climate to
the citizens.
(Members are requested to write their rank and name at the end of their
emai. – Chander Kamboj)
Sent: 12 September 2010 12:25
To: barkha@ndtv.com
Cc: Kamboj Chander; rajkadyan@yahoo.com
Subject: OROP. DENIAL.......A FEINT TO FOOL THE NATION AND HOPING TO PLAY
FIDDLE WHILE...
Dear Barkha,
You have so endeared yourself to the forces by your presence and portrayal
at Kargil that we would like to adopt you as a daughter or the Friend of the
Armed Forces and would recommend the title and permit of a WAR REPORTER.
The furore or the drama enacted to deny OROP or the legitimate disbursement
of awards by the AFTs.Can you ever imagine our own ministry harassing its
own wards? Can it be lieved that the PM or the RRM are oblivious of the fact
that combat units are functioning with 40% of officer strength/Naturally
NCOs &JCOs would be required to perform the duties of the most crucial level
in action which requires the hot blooded,cool thinking and daredevils like
VIKRAM.
To top it the terrorists and separatists object to NCOS or Naiks having to
open fire to disperse hooligans threatening the civilian life and property
and communication systems.Do they expect the NCO to come and salute the
miscreants and request them to become peaceful and get himself killed in the
process.It is already too late not do everything possible to attract
officer material into the forces otherwise the deficiency ofcombat
capability coupled with lack of proper respect and honour of the forces and
veterans will seriously jeopodise defence of the nation.
Can any one ever believe that mighty financial power INDIA cant offer
attractive pay package or OROP to safe guard itself?
Money or the mode of working or disbursement can never be the problem.
An individual must get entitled to a basic minimum pension esp disability
the day he sets out from his house for training centre to join as a recruit,
The rest of the personnel get pension per year of service or part thereof
and rank pension,DA,HARD AREA allowance, combat allowance same as is offered
to civilians being posted to Afganistan etc.THIS WILL TO SOME EXTENT ADDRESS
THE PROBLEM OFNOT GETTING THE SELECTION RADE PROMOTINS.As at least an
officer will not be hurt financially,.This should get uniformly revised
whenever it is done irrespective of the date of retirement for all.THAT IS
ALL THAT OROP IS ALL ABOUT,Happy veterans will love to continue the
tradition of sending their sons to parental units if they are sure they will
be looked after and honoured.The debate shows that a Havildar found it
difficult to look after his family with mere 15,000/- But this is the amount
Majors OF Pre 2006 retirement getting old age has bigger problems that only
money can solve.
The mindset that the Britishers left behind that Indians are not capable of
good governance and a strong and capable Armed Forces will take over soon
Nehru,Menon and otherBrown Sahibs believed this like gospel..Well if it has
not happened in last 60 years it will not happen in future also.But let us
get wiser and not let our guard down.
More than ever before we need strong and effectively functional armed
forces,The proof bof the pudding.....Let Davar proclaim what direction has
the Army taken in terms of manpower or equipment capabilities.We cant say we
cant manage our security, which is a real demon, so let us ousorce it to
OBAMA.He can do it cheaper with his drones and no one will complain since it
will be Amercan drones killing suspects Alternately LET US PULL UP OUR
SOCKS,STOP BICKERING AND BUILD UP A REAL STRONG AND FULLY MANPOWERED FORCE
OF OUR OWN.FULL STRENGTH OF OFFICERS AND NO REQUEST FOR PREMATURE
RETIREMENTS.
THE Congress Party having been at the helm of affairs for 2 terms will have
a lot to pay for, because of its inability to provide a secure climate to
the citizens.
(Members are requested to write their rank and name at the end of their
emai. – Chander Kamboj)
NDTV ..Views by MAj Ravindran
From: Ravindran Major
Sent: 12 September 2010 11:21
To: feedback@ndtv.com
Cc: Barkha Dutt
Subject: [SoldiersForDemocracy] Rank Injustice: One Rank, One Pension
I happened to watch the program 'Rank Injustice: One Rank, One pension' on
NDTV today. I am sorry to say that it was rank injustice to conclude the
program by stating that it requires a more serious debate in Parliament. A
debate in parliament will of course be needed for anything tangible to
happen but a right conclusion to this debate itself was necesary for this
program to have acted like a catalyst for that.
That aside, the discussion did expose how illiterates about matters military
confound and confuse the issues. Firstly there was the former defence
secretary who spoke like a typical bureaucrat- ignorant and arrogant (call
it condescending, if you will) to boot! No, it is not OROP or the emotion
that goes with it that has made me use these dscreptions. If the RTI Act has
succeeded in any way till date, it has been only in exposing the fraud being
perpetuated by the bureaucracy. And I dare say, given their job description
and the competence with which they are seen doing it, the bureaucrats
deserves to be paid less than sepoys of the army! Then there was the
professor who was claiming that it was natural for the younger generation to
earn more than their predecessors! The advocate who spoke seemed to be
interested only in the court cases! (Natural there, isn't it? For, without
litigation, where will she get her moolah from? ) The youngsters who
participated in the show did look better informed and more rational in their
expressions.
Now to present my take on the issue. OROP is definitely not a matter of
honour. It is just about bare minimum justice. Real justice would need not
only OROP but also lateral/re-employment till 60 years of age. On Maslow's
heirarchy of needs, it will be just amoung the basic needs. Honour comes
much higher up. One doubts whether the sycophants, court jestors et al who
overlord our systems can even imagine such needs! Capt Sidhu really did
express the frustration that has afflicted the armed forces community as a
whole, veterans in particular. Let the nation be ware! There need not be any
doubt that the idea of the nation itself is sustained by none other than the
members of the armed forces!
Yours truly
Veteran Major P M Ravindran
2/18, 'Aathria'
Kalpathy-678003
Tel: 0491-2576042
Sent: 12 September 2010 11:21
To: feedback@ndtv.com
Cc: Barkha Dutt
Subject: [SoldiersForDemocracy] Rank Injustice: One Rank, One Pension
I happened to watch the program 'Rank Injustice: One Rank, One pension' on
NDTV today. I am sorry to say that it was rank injustice to conclude the
program by stating that it requires a more serious debate in Parliament. A
debate in parliament will of course be needed for anything tangible to
happen but a right conclusion to this debate itself was necesary for this
program to have acted like a catalyst for that.
That aside, the discussion did expose how illiterates about matters military
confound and confuse the issues. Firstly there was the former defence
secretary who spoke like a typical bureaucrat- ignorant and arrogant (call
it condescending, if you will) to boot! No, it is not OROP or the emotion
that goes with it that has made me use these dscreptions. If the RTI Act has
succeeded in any way till date, it has been only in exposing the fraud being
perpetuated by the bureaucracy. And I dare say, given their job description
and the competence with which they are seen doing it, the bureaucrats
deserves to be paid less than sepoys of the army! Then there was the
professor who was claiming that it was natural for the younger generation to
earn more than their predecessors! The advocate who spoke seemed to be
interested only in the court cases! (Natural there, isn't it? For, without
litigation, where will she get her moolah from? ) The youngsters who
participated in the show did look better informed and more rational in their
expressions.
Now to present my take on the issue. OROP is definitely not a matter of
honour. It is just about bare minimum justice. Real justice would need not
only OROP but also lateral/re-employment till 60 years of age. On Maslow's
heirarchy of needs, it will be just amoung the basic needs. Honour comes
much higher up. One doubts whether the sycophants, court jestors et al who
overlord our systems can even imagine such needs! Capt Sidhu really did
express the frustration that has afflicted the armed forces community as a
whole, veterans in particular. Let the nation be ware! There need not be any
doubt that the idea of the nation itself is sustained by none other than the
members of the armed forces!
Yours truly
Veteran Major P M Ravindran
2/18, 'Aathria'
Kalpathy-678003
Tel: 0491-2576042
NDTV ..Views by Col HS Kaushal
span style="font-weight:bold;">From: col h s kaushal [mailto:colhsk@gmail.com]
Sent: 12 September 2010 13:31
To: REPORT MY SIGNAL (Chander Kamboj)
Subject: NDTV 24X7, OROP
Dear Sir.
Watched the show at NDTV 24x7 by me and many of the ESM and the civilians
whom I informed on phone.
Flooded with thanks for informing them for a wonderful show. Sir, OROP is no
more the concern of only the ESM but it has taken the shape of the NATIONAL
MOVEMENT.
My kudos to Barkha Dutt for having so beautifully conducted the entire show.
She was in complete control of the entire proceedings and her reviewing of
all the speakers and final summing up was worth watching. Special thanks to
all the speakers on behalf of ESM fraternity and specially Mr Rajeev
Chandeshekher, MP Parliament for his forceful support to the cause of ONE
RANK ONE PENSION.
Ferreting out all facts and acting on them with an iron hand is the only way
to ensure that the ESM fraternity doesn’t suffer at the hands of a few
power-drunk fiends, the one exam Babus. Some of the speakers opposing our
legitimate right did fumble out their reasons to the contrary.
It is really important that now we work as hard as we can with each other
and that any kind of the Babus accusation and some of the SUDO ESM finger
need not be worried. IT’S NOW OR NEVER and that shows that when the opposing
forces get worse, that’s not the reason to slink away. On the contrary it’s
a reason to work harder and aim higher.
Credentials of Mr. Davar to be ascertained of his being Capt and the ESM
from the Armed Forces.
Best regards
Lt Col H S Kaushal
Member IESM
Ambala Cantt
Sent: 12 September 2010 13:31
To: REPORT MY SIGNAL (Chander Kamboj)
Subject: NDTV 24X7, OROP
Dear Sir.
Watched the show at NDTV 24x7 by me and many of the ESM and the civilians
whom I informed on phone.
Flooded with thanks for informing them for a wonderful show. Sir, OROP is no
more the concern of only the ESM but it has taken the shape of the NATIONAL
MOVEMENT.
My kudos to Barkha Dutt for having so beautifully conducted the entire show.
She was in complete control of the entire proceedings and her reviewing of
all the speakers and final summing up was worth watching. Special thanks to
all the speakers on behalf of ESM fraternity and specially Mr Rajeev
Chandeshekher, MP Parliament for his forceful support to the cause of ONE
RANK ONE PENSION.
Ferreting out all facts and acting on them with an iron hand is the only way
to ensure that the ESM fraternity doesn’t suffer at the hands of a few
power-drunk fiends, the one exam Babus. Some of the speakers opposing our
legitimate right did fumble out their reasons to the contrary.
It is really important that now we work as hard as we can with each other
and that any kind of the Babus accusation and some of the SUDO ESM finger
need not be worried. IT’S NOW OR NEVER and that shows that when the opposing
forces get worse, that’s not the reason to slink away. On the contrary it’s
a reason to work harder and aim higher.
Credentials of Mr. Davar to be ascertained of his being Capt and the ESM
from the Armed Forces.
Best regards
Lt Col H S Kaushal
Member IESM
Ambala Cantt
NDTV..Views by Capt Mohan Ram IN
From: N.S. Mohanram
Date: 13 September 2010 12:11
Subject: Re: OROP PROGRAMME ON NDTV 24X7, FEED BACK - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 438/2010 - (H to Z-1) - 12 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
To: "kris prasad(KSK Prasad)"
I watched the debate onTV. It was lively and well moderated by
Barkha Dutt. If there are legal impediments to one rank one pension,
on the grounds it is retrospective, it should apply to Secretries and
corps commanders also. Arguments of legality and affordability are
convenient scapegoats. If we can waste throusands of corres on a
meaningless showpiecel like CWG, I suppose spending some money on
people who risk their life and limb is affordable.
It is clear that despite the standing committee of parliament's
recommendations, the bureaucracy is clearly against that the case.
Comparing firefighters with the army is downright perverse. Also
politicians do not understand the issue. They probably think the
ex-service vote bank is important!
That Major Sidhu had to fight thirty yerars for disability
pension for full ten years and is yet to get relief despite suprme
court verdict, shows the virulence and obduracy bureaucrats and their
tenacity in denying fair treatment to the Armed Forces. Only when
the political class realizes that this continous feeling of resentment
and second class status of the services can some day mutate (I
sincerely hope it does not!) into something more unpleasant, will they
wake up and do something.
Our politicians end up doing the right thing, only after
exhausting all other possible alternatives!
Captain MohanRam
Date: 13 September 2010 12:11
Subject: Re: OROP PROGRAMME ON NDTV 24X7, FEED BACK - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 438/2010 - (H to Z-1) - 12 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
To: "kris prasad(KSK Prasad)"
I watched the debate onTV. It was lively and well moderated by
Barkha Dutt. If there are legal impediments to one rank one pension,
on the grounds it is retrospective, it should apply to Secretries and
corps commanders also. Arguments of legality and affordability are
convenient scapegoats. If we can waste throusands of corres on a
meaningless showpiecel like CWG, I suppose spending some money on
people who risk their life and limb is affordable.
It is clear that despite the standing committee of parliament's
recommendations, the bureaucracy is clearly against that the case.
Comparing firefighters with the army is downright perverse. Also
politicians do not understand the issue. They probably think the
ex-service vote bank is important!
That Major Sidhu had to fight thirty yerars for disability
pension for full ten years and is yet to get relief despite suprme
court verdict, shows the virulence and obduracy bureaucrats and their
tenacity in denying fair treatment to the Armed Forces. Only when
the political class realizes that this continous feeling of resentment
and second class status of the services can some day mutate (I
sincerely hope it does not!) into something more unpleasant, will they
wake up and do something.
Our politicians end up doing the right thing, only after
exhausting all other possible alternatives!
Captain MohanRam
NDTV ...Views of Maj Gen VK Singh
From: vinay singh [mailto:vinay16318@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 13 September 2010 05:29
To: REPORT MY SIGNAL(CS Kamboj)
Subject: Beware of the babu - Sarojini Naidu's letter to Nathu Singh
Dear Brigadier Kamboj,
I saw the NDTV programme on NDTV 24X7. I think the bureaucrats and lawyers had no answers to the arguments advanced by Gen Oberoi, Gen Kadyan, Mr Chandra Sekhar, MP and Manvendra Singh, ex- MP. No one had an answer for the reasons for MPs, judges and Secretaries getting OROP. The fact that it isthe babus who have sabotaged it is now too well known to bear repetition.
The fear that the bureaucracy would ruin this country was foreseen even before Independence. I am giving below an extract of the letter written by Sarojini Naidu to Brig Thakur Nathu Singh, who was then the Director Personnel Services, in the Adjutant General's Branch in Army HQ, which was then located at Meerut. This was shortly after Nathu Singh had been offered the post of C-in-C by Sardar Baldev Singh, the Defence Minister. Sarojini Naidu and Nathu Singh had given evidence before the Skeen Committee on the same day, and had become quite close to each other. Sarojini insisted that Nathu Singh should call her 'Mah' (Mother), and that is the way she signed her letters to him. The two often corresponded, and at this juncture, he wrote to her, about the problems facing the Country, and nationalisation of the Army. Sarojini Naidu responded, on 9 January 1947, and wrote:
"Dear Nathoo Singh,
Many Thanks for sending me your very illuminating 'Shot in the dark'. It gives a correct picture of the situation from every angle.
.....As the security of the country depends entirely upon the Army, the army should not be based on what the country can afford to have for its defence. It will be fatal to rely on a small armed force, however efficient and modernly equipped it may be; because our country is vulnerable, bristling with traitors and the fifth columnists, in millions in every part of India. We all know the character and honesty of our potential enemies and so called friends.
Our leaders should get advice from us Indians in the army and other branches..... and not repeat not from hirelings, who have their own axes to grind;....
One thing more, probably you have noticed but have not mentioned; is how the army is at a disadvantage because of that 'steel frame', who wants to have the last word in everything pertaining to the Army. That steel frame must go.
Once again, many thanks for sending me the most illuminating 'Shot in the Dark.'
Yours
Mah
Two very important points emerge from the letter. One, the argument that funds are not enough should never be a consideration when deciding the size and quality of the Army. Second, the propensity of the bureaucrat to keep the military out of the decision making process was known even then, by the political class. Unfortunately for us, the steel frame did not go. In fact, it has become stronger.
Maj Gen VK Singh
Sent: 13 September 2010 05:29
To: REPORT MY SIGNAL(CS Kamboj)
Subject: Beware of the babu - Sarojini Naidu's letter to Nathu Singh
Dear Brigadier Kamboj,
I saw the NDTV programme on NDTV 24X7. I think the bureaucrats and lawyers had no answers to the arguments advanced by Gen Oberoi, Gen Kadyan, Mr Chandra Sekhar, MP and Manvendra Singh, ex- MP. No one had an answer for the reasons for MPs, judges and Secretaries getting OROP. The fact that it isthe babus who have sabotaged it is now too well known to bear repetition.
The fear that the bureaucracy would ruin this country was foreseen even before Independence. I am giving below an extract of the letter written by Sarojini Naidu to Brig Thakur Nathu Singh, who was then the Director Personnel Services, in the Adjutant General's Branch in Army HQ, which was then located at Meerut. This was shortly after Nathu Singh had been offered the post of C-in-C by Sardar Baldev Singh, the Defence Minister. Sarojini Naidu and Nathu Singh had given evidence before the Skeen Committee on the same day, and had become quite close to each other. Sarojini insisted that Nathu Singh should call her 'Mah' (Mother), and that is the way she signed her letters to him. The two often corresponded, and at this juncture, he wrote to her, about the problems facing the Country, and nationalisation of the Army. Sarojini Naidu responded, on 9 January 1947, and wrote:
"Dear Nathoo Singh,
Many Thanks for sending me your very illuminating 'Shot in the dark'. It gives a correct picture of the situation from every angle.
.....As the security of the country depends entirely upon the Army, the army should not be based on what the country can afford to have for its defence. It will be fatal to rely on a small armed force, however efficient and modernly equipped it may be; because our country is vulnerable, bristling with traitors and the fifth columnists, in millions in every part of India. We all know the character and honesty of our potential enemies and so called friends.
Our leaders should get advice from us Indians in the army and other branches..... and not repeat not from hirelings, who have their own axes to grind;....
One thing more, probably you have noticed but have not mentioned; is how the army is at a disadvantage because of that 'steel frame', who wants to have the last word in everything pertaining to the Army. That steel frame must go.
Once again, many thanks for sending me the most illuminating 'Shot in the Dark.'
Yours
Mah
Two very important points emerge from the letter. One, the argument that funds are not enough should never be a consideration when deciding the size and quality of the Army. Second, the propensity of the bureaucrat to keep the military out of the decision making process was known even then, by the political class. Unfortunately for us, the steel frame did not go. In fact, it has become stronger.
Maj Gen VK Singh
Monday, September 13, 2010
NDTV Views by Lt Gen Vinay Shankar
From: LT GEN VINAY SHANKAR rekhavinayshankar@hotmail.com
Sent: 12 September 2010 11:19
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: RE: OROP PROGRAMME ON NDTV 24X7, SUNDAY 12 SEP AT 2000 HRS - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 437/2010 - (H to Z-2) - 11 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
Dear Chander,
After listening to "We the People" this evening two brief points that our movement could make as the struggle continues.
First every direct entry IAS and IPS officer goes home as secretary to GOI or equivalent. If he or she does not get the rank at the center they get it in their respective states. We all know the number of DGs and principle secretaries that each has. A little research may establish that this is true for even Defense accounts and for that matter all other Class 1 services. The exceptions could be only those who enter service at ages beyond 26 years or thereabouts. An RTI could prove my point. And this also explains why only the defense services are agitating.
Second is the uniqueness of our service ( a point adequately emphasized). Everyone else is a mister or Mrs during service and after retirement. The defense services have been given the privilege to carry their rank till the last post is blown and after. So comparisons should be avoided.
A big hand to all those who spoke on our behalf.
Warm regards
Vinay (Lt Gen Vinay Shankar, Former DG Arty)
Sent: 12 September 2010 11:19
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: RE: OROP PROGRAMME ON NDTV 24X7, SUNDAY 12 SEP AT 2000 HRS - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 437/2010 - (H to Z-2) - 11 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
Dear Chander,
After listening to "We the People" this evening two brief points that our movement could make as the struggle continues.
First every direct entry IAS and IPS officer goes home as secretary to GOI or equivalent. If he or she does not get the rank at the center they get it in their respective states. We all know the number of DGs and principle secretaries that each has. A little research may establish that this is true for even Defense accounts and for that matter all other Class 1 services. The exceptions could be only those who enter service at ages beyond 26 years or thereabouts. An RTI could prove my point. And this also explains why only the defense services are agitating.
Second is the uniqueness of our service ( a point adequately emphasized). Everyone else is a mister or Mrs during service and after retirement. The defense services have been given the privilege to carry their rank till the last post is blown and after. So comparisons should be avoided.
A big hand to all those who spoke on our behalf.
Warm regards
Vinay (Lt Gen Vinay Shankar, Former DG Arty)
NDTV...Views of Wg Cdr MG Kapoor
From: MG Kapoor [mailto:mgkapoor.1962@gmail.com]
Sent: 12 September 2010 12:20
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: Re: OROP PROGRAMME ON NDTV 24X7, SUNDAY 12 SEP AT 2000 HRS - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 437/2010 - (H to Z-1) - 11 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
Dear Kamboj Sir,
I watched the TV telecast on OROP. I am sorry but enough homework was not done by those representing and propagating OROP; perhaps there was no compession as they were not that affected. Lt Gen Kadyan was ill-prepared to answer a very valid question. Gen Oberoi was better but still did not show compassion. The best was Mr. Rajiv Chandrershekhar (I hope I have correctly named him - being the person being interviwed on television) in advocating our case for OROP.
I fail to understand that whereas there was participation by Lt Generals as also a Havildar, Major Generals as also middle ranking officers were conspicuous by their absence. If, say for example Major Generals had been represented by Maj Gen Satbir Singh or Maj Gen Suri carrying on fight for Maj Generals on behalf of Maj Generals they would have countered the question of Ms. Indu Liberhan, representing "BABUS", that "Secretaries and Lt Generals" were getting OROP because there was only one scale of pay for them by citing S.S. Vains case decided by the Apex Court favouring OROP.
The selection of Havilldar was poor in as much as they selected a Havildar who after discharge was able to find a job as a clerk, which is rather rare. Most of the ex-servicemen retired as sepoys, NCOs or JCOs hardly are able to find placement after discharge and selecting some such representatives would have shown more compession to our case.
Lt General Kadyan's rhetoric "it is not for money but honour thaat we are fioghting for" remained a rhetoric; not fighting favour with audience. He should have been frank and stated it is for the differential in pension that is hitting.
Then the statement "we have not surrendered medals but have simply deposited them" was uncalled for. It showed as if the surrender of medals was a gimmick.
Enough lobbying was not done with Barkha Dutt it appears. Or was it that the 'Babus' or that son nof a gun some Capt Davar did the lobbying?
Further we mixed up the issues by bringing in Capt Sidhu's compassionate case that sidetracked the main issue.
With kind regards,
MG
Sent: 12 September 2010 12:20
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: Re: OROP PROGRAMME ON NDTV 24X7, SUNDAY 12 SEP AT 2000 HRS - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 437/2010 - (H to Z-1) - 11 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
Dear Kamboj Sir,
I watched the TV telecast on OROP. I am sorry but enough homework was not done by those representing and propagating OROP; perhaps there was no compession as they were not that affected. Lt Gen Kadyan was ill-prepared to answer a very valid question. Gen Oberoi was better but still did not show compassion. The best was Mr. Rajiv Chandrershekhar (I hope I have correctly named him - being the person being interviwed on television) in advocating our case for OROP.
I fail to understand that whereas there was participation by Lt Generals as also a Havildar, Major Generals as also middle ranking officers were conspicuous by their absence. If, say for example Major Generals had been represented by Maj Gen Satbir Singh or Maj Gen Suri carrying on fight for Maj Generals on behalf of Maj Generals they would have countered the question of Ms. Indu Liberhan, representing "BABUS", that "Secretaries and Lt Generals" were getting OROP because there was only one scale of pay for them by citing S.S. Vains case decided by the Apex Court favouring OROP.
The selection of Havilldar was poor in as much as they selected a Havildar who after discharge was able to find a job as a clerk, which is rather rare. Most of the ex-servicemen retired as sepoys, NCOs or JCOs hardly are able to find placement after discharge and selecting some such representatives would have shown more compession to our case.
Lt General Kadyan's rhetoric "it is not for money but honour thaat we are fioghting for" remained a rhetoric; not fighting favour with audience. He should have been frank and stated it is for the differential in pension that is hitting.
Then the statement "we have not surrendered medals but have simply deposited them" was uncalled for. It showed as if the surrender of medals was a gimmick.
Enough lobbying was not done with Barkha Dutt it appears. Or was it that the 'Babus' or that son nof a gun some Capt Davar did the lobbying?
Further we mixed up the issues by bringing in Capt Sidhu's compassionate case that sidetracked the main issue.
With kind regards,
MG
NDTV ...RANK INJUSTICE- OROP by Col Raman
RANK INJUSTICE- OROP
The much awaited & much heralded NDTV programme on OROP was telecast to the satisfaction of the ESM, on schedule.
We were fortunate to have all the high ranking Veteran Officers, who are deeply involved with the issue, taking part in the debate. Of course, Rajeev Chandra Sekhar, MP, who is more dedicated than some of the ESM themselves for the cause, was on Video Conference mode. His contribution to the debate, having established his moral superiority in refusing the Pay Hike, was in full view. All the participants did a commendable job.
Barkha Datt, played the role of third umpire to full satisfaction, steering the debate away from the emotional plane, to the path of sensibility.
Davar was true to his political masters. He never wavered. His contention that the Govt has already brought the pre 2006 retiree PBOR at par with the post 2006, was straight away rejected by Gen Oberoi, who pointed out the actual pensions of sepoys of both the categories. Though the usage of the term PBOR was objected to by (Hony) Lt Pandey, for ease of progressing the debate, the anchor suggested that they continue with the term. Davar also explained that the RM has said that the issue could be resolved over a period of time. “Why not now” was the chorus of protest from the Veterans. He also highlighted that the Separate Pay Commission will be formed in next four years, when issue of OROP to Veteran Officers will also be resolved. Shri Chandra Sekhar promptly cautioned him NOT to create rift between the Officers & PBOR. The Officers form not more than 2 % of the Veterans.
At the outset, Lt Gen Raj Kadyan explained that “the demand for OROP is not new. It was in vogue earlier. From 1982, this has been our consistent demand. It is not for extra emoluments alone, as being interpreted by some people. It is for the restoration of honour & equity amongst the ranks, irrespective of their dates of retirement.
The former Defence Secretary, Indu Libheran was the first to express her reservations. In her opinion, the demand of OROP will create more problems, than solving a few anomalies. Asking for better compensation package for the early retirement, for the risk factor & hazardous service conditions, may well be within the cards. OROP per say may not be legally tenable.
Prof (Dr) Ajay Shah also echoed the same sentiment. He said that in the present day conditions, a son drawing more pay than his father, for the same employment, is quite usual. However, his comparison of a Fire Fighter from a Fire Brigade facing similar risk of a soldier, was laughable. He was also put down effectively by Veteran Manavendra Singh, stating that the Fire Man has a choice in entering a burning building. But a soldier, in action always enters the burning building, because it is his duty. ( My Comment-If that was the comparison, we could never have captured the lofty heights in Kargil. Officers & men literally went into battle with death staring at them, at every step- Bharka Datt was an eye witness-)
Capt Siddhu’s introduction into the debate, though well received on the emotional plane, could not add weight to the issue of OROP. Gen Oberoi did clarify the plight of disabled Veterans like him, explaining that their pension has two components- the service & percentage of disability. One young girl pointed out that how could a disabled Soldier look after his family when the pension was not even sufficient to maintain himself. Siddhu made a pertinent point about how the IAS & IPS officers make rules only to safe guard their interests & protect OROP for their cadres. Indu Libheran pointed out that all IAS & IPS Officers do not retire with OROP. Where ever the Pay Scales are fixed they retire at a particular level, within the scale.
Cmde Udai Bhaskar mentioned about his experience with Indra Gandhi, where she initially agreed to discuss the issue of OROP within the Cabinet but could not do so. He also mentioned that the increase in the Pay of MPs was not resented to, but the manner in which they enforced it was deplorable.
Ms Pinky Anand, Senior Lawyer of SC, cautioned that if OROP is implemented, there is likely to be a spate of litigations. She also questioned as to how we can have OROP, when the jobs performed are not equal?
Prof Ajai also was of the same opinion. He further refined it by stating that how the honour component fit in, when what the Veterans are asking really means better compensation for the reasons they have brought out.
My own assessment of the debate.
Dear Veterans, the debate was well received by the ESM community. More than 95 % of the audience present were Veterans or their dependents. Very few from outside our fraternity would have watched the show. However, it was a grand success. Barkha Datt palmed it off to the Parliament, for more serious discussion & decision.
Without getting emotional, we have to further stream line our next encounter.
Questions raised by the Civilian Dignitaries who were present.
a. All Civilian Cadre Officers do not get OROP. Apart from a few categories of Judiciary, Central Govt employees, MPs, Defence Service Officers & the likes, others are not covered by this criterion.
b. There was no qualm on seeking better compensation package to off set early retirement, hazards of service, difficulty due to weather & climatic conditions, separation from the family et al. But seeking OROP & liking honour as a factor, was not understood by them.
c. As the Lawyer raised the query, how can OROP demanded for all even though the jobs performed are not equal. She was of the opinion that it was not legally tenable.
These questions may be repeated in future also. The study team may consider these aspects & prepare for suitable clarifications.
Regards & Best Wishes,
Veteran Raman
Col (Retd) TN Raman
E5/230, AWHO Parameswaran Vihar,
67, Arcot Road, Saligramam,
Chennai 600093
Ph: 044-42013210
Mob: 0- 9840033326
The much awaited & much heralded NDTV programme on OROP was telecast to the satisfaction of the ESM, on schedule.
We were fortunate to have all the high ranking Veteran Officers, who are deeply involved with the issue, taking part in the debate. Of course, Rajeev Chandra Sekhar, MP, who is more dedicated than some of the ESM themselves for the cause, was on Video Conference mode. His contribution to the debate, having established his moral superiority in refusing the Pay Hike, was in full view. All the participants did a commendable job.
Barkha Datt, played the role of third umpire to full satisfaction, steering the debate away from the emotional plane, to the path of sensibility.
Davar was true to his political masters. He never wavered. His contention that the Govt has already brought the pre 2006 retiree PBOR at par with the post 2006, was straight away rejected by Gen Oberoi, who pointed out the actual pensions of sepoys of both the categories. Though the usage of the term PBOR was objected to by (Hony) Lt Pandey, for ease of progressing the debate, the anchor suggested that they continue with the term. Davar also explained that the RM has said that the issue could be resolved over a period of time. “Why not now” was the chorus of protest from the Veterans. He also highlighted that the Separate Pay Commission will be formed in next four years, when issue of OROP to Veteran Officers will also be resolved. Shri Chandra Sekhar promptly cautioned him NOT to create rift between the Officers & PBOR. The Officers form not more than 2 % of the Veterans.
At the outset, Lt Gen Raj Kadyan explained that “the demand for OROP is not new. It was in vogue earlier. From 1982, this has been our consistent demand. It is not for extra emoluments alone, as being interpreted by some people. It is for the restoration of honour & equity amongst the ranks, irrespective of their dates of retirement.
The former Defence Secretary, Indu Libheran was the first to express her reservations. In her opinion, the demand of OROP will create more problems, than solving a few anomalies. Asking for better compensation package for the early retirement, for the risk factor & hazardous service conditions, may well be within the cards. OROP per say may not be legally tenable.
Prof (Dr) Ajay Shah also echoed the same sentiment. He said that in the present day conditions, a son drawing more pay than his father, for the same employment, is quite usual. However, his comparison of a Fire Fighter from a Fire Brigade facing similar risk of a soldier, was laughable. He was also put down effectively by Veteran Manavendra Singh, stating that the Fire Man has a choice in entering a burning building. But a soldier, in action always enters the burning building, because it is his duty. ( My Comment-If that was the comparison, we could never have captured the lofty heights in Kargil. Officers & men literally went into battle with death staring at them, at every step- Bharka Datt was an eye witness-)
Capt Siddhu’s introduction into the debate, though well received on the emotional plane, could not add weight to the issue of OROP. Gen Oberoi did clarify the plight of disabled Veterans like him, explaining that their pension has two components- the service & percentage of disability. One young girl pointed out that how could a disabled Soldier look after his family when the pension was not even sufficient to maintain himself. Siddhu made a pertinent point about how the IAS & IPS officers make rules only to safe guard their interests & protect OROP for their cadres. Indu Libheran pointed out that all IAS & IPS Officers do not retire with OROP. Where ever the Pay Scales are fixed they retire at a particular level, within the scale.
Cmde Udai Bhaskar mentioned about his experience with Indra Gandhi, where she initially agreed to discuss the issue of OROP within the Cabinet but could not do so. He also mentioned that the increase in the Pay of MPs was not resented to, but the manner in which they enforced it was deplorable.
Ms Pinky Anand, Senior Lawyer of SC, cautioned that if OROP is implemented, there is likely to be a spate of litigations. She also questioned as to how we can have OROP, when the jobs performed are not equal?
Prof Ajai also was of the same opinion. He further refined it by stating that how the honour component fit in, when what the Veterans are asking really means better compensation for the reasons they have brought out.
My own assessment of the debate.
Dear Veterans, the debate was well received by the ESM community. More than 95 % of the audience present were Veterans or their dependents. Very few from outside our fraternity would have watched the show. However, it was a grand success. Barkha Datt palmed it off to the Parliament, for more serious discussion & decision.
Without getting emotional, we have to further stream line our next encounter.
Questions raised by the Civilian Dignitaries who were present.
a. All Civilian Cadre Officers do not get OROP. Apart from a few categories of Judiciary, Central Govt employees, MPs, Defence Service Officers & the likes, others are not covered by this criterion.
b. There was no qualm on seeking better compensation package to off set early retirement, hazards of service, difficulty due to weather & climatic conditions, separation from the family et al. But seeking OROP & liking honour as a factor, was not understood by them.
c. As the Lawyer raised the query, how can OROP demanded for all even though the jobs performed are not equal. She was of the opinion that it was not legally tenable.
These questions may be repeated in future also. The study team may consider these aspects & prepare for suitable clarifications.
Regards & Best Wishes,
Veteran Raman
Col (Retd) TN Raman
E5/230, AWHO Parameswaran Vihar,
67, Arcot Road, Saligramam,
Chennai 600093
Ph: 044-42013210
Mob: 0- 9840033326
NDTV Views by Col Kala
From: mmp kala [mailto:mmp_kala@yahoo.com]
Sent: 12 September 2010 13:14
To: genoberoi@gmail.com; Kamboj Chander; Raj Kadyan
Cc: brig kuthiala; kaul_rattan@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: OROP PROGRAMME ON NDTV 24X7, SUNDAY 12 SEP AT 2000 HRS - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 437/2010 - (H to Z-1) - 11 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
Dear General,
I watched the programme, and it was heartening that you brought out the issues logically, firmly and vociferously. I am attaching a paper written by me, and a proposed draft Advertisement for publicity, as and when. we decide to go to the Judiciary for redressal of grievances (appended below). I wish that the issues of length of service for which the pension is being granted to various ranks AND ITS PURCHASE POWER IN TERMS OF GOLD (STANDARD FOR MONETARY TRANSACTIONS) was brought out by some one . We would be happy with our old pensions if the Government maintained its purchasing power in terms of gold at that time; post first pay commission, pension of a Major would fetch some 65 plus gram of gold, will the Govt grant those Majors over Rs 1.25 lacs as pension?.
Sir, it appears that a separate pay commission for soldiers will be convened in 2016. How many of us won't be there at that time? We are fighting for our rights and justice now. Should one pronouncement of the Government deny us justice for another six to eight years plus?
Lastly, do you not think that the Government leaves us no option but to approach the Judiciary for justice? And if yes, then let us prepare a case as early as possible and have all two million plus ex-servicemen as litigants.
With best regards,
Col Kala
Sent: 12 September 2010 13:14
To: genoberoi@gmail.com; Kamboj Chander; Raj Kadyan
Cc: brig kuthiala; kaul_rattan@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: OROP PROGRAMME ON NDTV 24X7, SUNDAY 12 SEP AT 2000 HRS - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 437/2010 - (H to Z-1) - 11 SEP 2010 (USA CT)
Dear General,
I watched the programme, and it was heartening that you brought out the issues logically, firmly and vociferously. I am attaching a paper written by me, and a proposed draft Advertisement for publicity, as and when. we decide to go to the Judiciary for redressal of grievances (appended below). I wish that the issues of length of service for which the pension is being granted to various ranks AND ITS PURCHASE POWER IN TERMS OF GOLD (STANDARD FOR MONETARY TRANSACTIONS) was brought out by some one . We would be happy with our old pensions if the Government maintained its purchasing power in terms of gold at that time; post first pay commission, pension of a Major would fetch some 65 plus gram of gold, will the Govt grant those Majors over Rs 1.25 lacs as pension?.
Sir, it appears that a separate pay commission for soldiers will be convened in 2016. How many of us won't be there at that time? We are fighting for our rights and justice now. Should one pronouncement of the Government deny us justice for another six to eight years plus?
Lastly, do you not think that the Government leaves us no option but to approach the Judiciary for justice? And if yes, then let us prepare a case as early as possible and have all two million plus ex-servicemen as litigants.
With best regards,
Col Kala
Thursday, September 9, 2010
Befitting reply by Lt Col Inderjit Singh on OROP Struggle
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Inderjit Singh
Date: Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 11:52 AM
Subject: FW: TUM MUJHE KHOON DO MAIN TUMHE OROP DOONGA
To: dk.sahrawat@gmail.com
cc:
Dear Mr Sehrawat and all the Veteran Friends
I am distressed to go through this misleading mail worked out to defame the Most patriotic community of the nation. A community that is ever ready to Sacrifice every thing including their lives for the unity integrity and Independence of the motherland. How sad. Coming from people who have done nothing but plundered the nation makes it disgusting.
I must tell you that i am the author of this concept of orop. I was the first Man to take it up with indiraji on 22 feb 1982. After that pursued it all the time and am still at it. We were instrumental for every step taken by successive Govts. If i said that the history of my association is the history of the welfare Measures by the govts i would not be exaggerating. You should therefore grant Me that i should know more about this matter than you who has sent this pack Of lies and half truths in the shape of misleading presentation for us to swallow.
From the tenor and tone of the mail it seems that mr sehrawat you proabely are a member of the elitist group of the natons services, if not then perhaps
There proxy for sending this rubbish. What can we expect from you but this absolute distortion of facts. When your colleagues can go to the Sacred house of parliament and speak lies and get away. How does it matter if you spoke few lies here and there and distort the facts in this mail.
If you want to see the lies spoken by your colleagues, we can have a separate meeting For that, for one can not cover those in any mail what ever one likes to do.
Now your basic lies that you have tried to impress us with. What I state is not heresay or things picked up from here and there. It is personal knowledge acquired by 30 years of dedicated work for this cause and After having forced the government to appoint these committees, been member of every committee appointed by the government except the inter ministerial ones you mentioned for obvious reasons.
A) it is right that the estimates committee had considered this on their own in 1982. They however did not reject it, on the contrary they desired that it be
Considered favorably. This kind of recommendaton lands the matter in the lap Of your colleagues. Once it comes there you play merry hell into it as they did with this report.
B) this issue was raised by us first time on 22 feb 1982 when I landed with 5000 Veterans at the pm's residence and presented the first ever memorandum which had five points, OROP being the top one. Indiraji was busy that day, so Rajivji accepted the memorandum on her behalf and promised to see that it was
accepted.
We held another rally in honour of respected Indiraji on 25 june 1983, she promised to do it in one go if the monsoon that year was normal and in phases if necessary. Soon after we announced 10,000.00 war medals return to the President of India and our C in C on 15 august 1983.
I was invited by Mr Venkataraman the RM on 10 August 1983 where I suggested that a committee or a commission be appointed to go into the entire gamut of
our problems and solve these. The RM took it to Indiraji and informed me that our suggestion had been accepted by her for appointment of a high level Committee. On this we dropped the idea of medals return.
This committee was headed by the RRM Mr KP Singhdeo. I was a special invitee for this committee. It made far reaching 68 recommendations covering all aspects. OROP was strongly recommended by them for consideration of the Govt and not as you have suggested its reference to the fourth CPC. This report was presented to the prime minister two days before her assassination. To our great misfortune she was snatched away by destiny.
Otherwise we would have got it in 1984. She was one leader who could put your colleagues where they belonged and fulfilled her promise given on 25 June 1983 to us.
This report then landed in the hands of your colleagues. Do you know what they did. They accepted 52 recommendations like we should maintain discipline in Society, and rejeected 16 of these which gave us any tangible benefits. OROP being the first one. To give you an idea about how low you can go I narrate.
One recommendation said orop should be accepted. Then the next one was that after this was accepted all special facilities given to ex servicemen should be
withdrawn. They accepted the second one without accepting the OROP. Ha ha ha. Isnt that amusing ?
C) I must educate you before proceeding further about a High Level Empowered Committee (HLEC). This is not a recommendatory committee, it is an empowered
Committee whose recommendations are final for implementation. The fact that you are bigger than them is a different matter.
The biggest lie you have spoken is that hgh level empowered committee Rejected orop and gave one time increase (OTI),
First let me put you wise about how this committee came about. In 1991 the Congress govt was heading a minority government. The opposition was
motivated by some politically motivated and misguided elements to move a resolution in parliament that if the govt did not immediately accept to implement vp singh govts ad hoc increase formula they will pull down the govt. This formula I had termed as betrayal of trust by Sh VP Singh the previous PM. Its implementation would have been disastrous for us. I moved swiftly to stop it. Walked into Mr Pawars office and demanded OROP instead. After heated exchanges he accepted my request for reconsideration. After another meeting and discussion he went to the parliament and announced the HLEC to improve the pensions.
I was made a member of this HLEC.
This committee was very inclined to give OROP but the economic conditions in which we sent our gold to UK to run the country prevented that. What was
given brought us almost there.
The bureaucrats wanted a clause to reject the OROP but I strongly opposed it. This was as a result not commented upon so that it did not close the door for its consideration and grant in future.
Despite the total opposition from the bureaucrats, the award of this Committee was very good. This award had to be converted into notification for implementation by the bureaucrats. You know what they did.
The notification did not even give 1/3 of what was given by the HELC . What they could not achieve during the proceedings of the committee they tried to
achieve it through the notification.
I took up the matter with the rm mr sharad pawar. He immediately appointed an anomalies removal committee again of bureaucrats. You know what they did. They created even more complicated anomalies that I could only have removed through the Fifth CPC.
After their experiences in the high level empowered committee where we did not let the bureaucrats get away with their lies they probably vowed never to
have such a committee in which we are represented. So far they have succeeded in this matter. They started the new system of having inter ministerial committees or group of ministers (GOM). Of these committees they never told us their composition or their charter. Nor did they tell us when they were meeting.
D) Your all information is wrong and inadequuate. The decision of the govt on fifth cpc report came on 18 july 1997. It gave modified parity to all govt servants including the Armed forces. We started an agitaional program at the red fort on 22 august 1997 that lasted for 107 days. We were seeking full parity which in other words meant OROP. On the second day the PM Mr gujral called for a meeting with me where I explained to him the entire problem. He promised to examine the matter and come back.
During this period we had three major rallies, besides indefinite fasts, medal returns and relay fasts. Ultimately a meeting with the Defence Secretary was fixed for 03 nov 1997. The secretary had been empowered by the PM to accept our three to four major demands for implementation after approval of the cabinet and rest could follow in normal routine. OROP and removal of 33 years conditionality were the ones accepted besides two more for implementation. The defence secretary reqested me to give him a paper on these four accepted demands which he could put up straight to the cabinet. I gave him the paper the next day.
The bureaucrats did not put these up quickly enough. Then to our misfortune the govt fell and the matter went into tizzy again.
The next govt took over. I gave seven demands to the next PM Mr Atal Bihari Vajpayee. My meeting was fixed with him on 26 july 2001. In that meeting he
accepted three demands and for the remaining four he appointed a committee headed by the RM, which was to give its report in three months. This committee never met for over six months and after that the RM wrote to me rejecting all the demands. We then called a rally at the Ram Lila Ground on feb 23 2003. On this rally we invited the chairman of the defence committee Mr Madan Lal Khurana. He promised to invite me to Parliament and after understanding the matter do every thing possible to help us.
Presentation they made a very strong report to the govt demanding that OROP be granted.
The bureaucrats formed an inter ministerial committee to find ways and means to reject the defense committee report. In their action taken report (ATR) they spoke blatant lies to reject the report.
In the meantime the govt changed. The new chairman of the defense committee called me to understand the mess created by this report. It was disgusting to see the level your clan had stooped to somehow reject our demands so strongly recommended by the committee. I picked up eleven major lies out of the report and submitted the paper to the chairman. On this he made another strong recommendation for its grant rejecting the ATR and as submitted by me asked for a high level empowered committee in which we were represented to resolve the issue.
I hope you now understand when this committee was formed and what they did.
E) After the second report of the defense committee the govt appointed a group of ministers (GOM), headed by Mr Pranab Mukherji the RM, to re examine the matter in may 2005 and not in jan 2005 as you have mentioned. This was not acceptable to me so I went to see the RM and told him so. He asked why I did not accept it.
I asked him in turn what was he going to base his recommendations on. Obviously what the bureaucrats put up to him. I gave him the paper on what lies hey spoke in the parliament and pointed out that if they could speak such lies in the parliament they were not going to say anything different to him. The result of such an exercise is a foregone conclusion. You would reject these submissions of ours. He was kind to tell me that the reference for this committee had come from PM’s office, he therefore could not change the format, but promised to invite me for presentation before he made his report. I then accepted to go along. When the bureaucrats learnt about it they went into action to scuttle my presentation. When i realized this I went and met the RM and requested him to stop the mischief of the bureaucrats, hold the meeting for my presentation and then give his award as the entire country's ex servicemen were waiting for the award.
I got the greatest shock of my life when he told me that he could not invite me. The bigger shock was to find such a senior minister like Mr Pranab Mukherji not being able to flfill his simple promise to hear me.
I wondered what could be the helplessness of the other ministers in front of these true masters of the nation .
Shocked and astonished i worked up my way to Soniaji with the help of my benevolent friend Mr KP Singhdeo and sought her intervention to save the day for us. Her kind intervention resulted in the govt announcing Parity with the fifth cpc rates on 25 jan 2006. In other words orop with fifth cpc rates.
This means that the GOM did not reject the OROP, they put the entire processes right by giving parity with the Fifth cpc rates and set a precedence for all future pay commissions to give armed forces parity with Their rates, in other words OROP.
I hope you now understand this matter better. In case you dont i can personally come and further clarify your doubts so that you do not make such sweeping statements in future.
F) The sixth pay commission stated what suited them to deny us the rightful dues. When i went to make my presentation they were working on the same assumption quietly supressing the fact of parity with fifth cpc rates given to the armed forces by this GOM. I clarified this to them and demanded that they have to maintain this precedence by giving us parity now with sixth cpc rates. When the report came i was shocked to see that they have continued with their canard of the fifth cpc and ignored the gom award.
I called them and was told that they have consciously taken the decision not to give parity with sixth cpc rates.
Obviously they had to do that to justify their mischief.
G) Well if the govt improved the pensions in the budget what is so great about it. They have done it for you as well. On the contrary the govt had failed to give the armed forces their rightful dues by not giving OROP.
Not only that what the govt has given is totally demeaning because they have totally downgraded the status of the armed forces.
SUPREME COURT EXAMINATION OF OROP. NAKRA CASE
It seems that you believe in the adage that if you continue to speak the same lie, a stage will come when every body would start accepting it as truth.
Let me educate you on this matter before i proceed. The nakra case was that the liberalized formula sanctioned by the government should be applied to all irrespective of date of retirement. The liberalized formula said that penson should be fifty percent of last pay drawn. The organization which filed this case, less said about them the better. They are actually the cause of our miserable plight. Some highly intelligent members of that organization, without applying their minds, filed the supreme court case saying that the govt had committed contempt of court by not granting us the orop on account of this ruling.
The court then proceeded to examine if the orop came under the ambit of the rulng on liberalized formula.
A word about these two things. Liberalized formula meant giving fifty per cent of last pay drawn as pension. That means whatever salary one was getting at the time of retirement he gets fifty percent of that salary only. Since at different points of time men got different rates of salary so they could only get different rates of pension under the purview of this order. The orop means that same rank personnel got the same pension irrespective of date of retirement.
How could they then get same pension for same rank under this order.. The court very rightly concluded that orop does not fall under the ambit of nakra case. The govt have therefore not violated their order. It was therefore dismissed. The govt in actual practice had given more than the liberalized formula gave by bringing all the sepoys to rs 150.00 pm pension even to those who drew far too less a salary and were drawing rs 4 and later rs 17 as pensions.
It was not orop that was rejected, in fact the contempt case was rejected. These gentlemen asked a wrong question from the court and got a wrong answer.
This case has not done any good for us, on the contrary this case has left a permanent handle in the hands of your colleagues to flaunt to the unwary leadership and have this matter rejected every time it comes up.
PEOPLE WHO CARE FOR THEIR NATION
The leadershp of the tiniest nation Singapore and the mightiest one USA , get on house tops and blair away that they would give the best tangible and non tangible benefits to that section of the society who do the most difficult job for the nation. Then they go onto elaborate that it is the armed forces which are doing the most difficult task for the nation and they would therefore get the best of tangble and non tangible benefits and then they give it with pride. What happens in our country. When the nation is confronted by a calamity natural or man made the armed forces are brought and squeezed to the hilt and after the job is done they are hanged on the nearest pole till they are dead.
IN A MEETING OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE OF THE VOLUNTARY agencies (scova) in the ministry of pensions, I was asked as to what are our demands. I after narrating the above facts told them I seek attitudinal change of the bureaucracy from hanging the armed forces to the nearest pole to gving them the best, every thing will be covered. There was a total furore and protestations but no answer given. You want to know what means you employ to deny us our rightful dues ? I can tell you separately if you so desire.
For your benefit i wish to tell you that the usa gives OROP to the armed forces and not to the civilians. Further the armed forces pensions are fully paid by the govt. The armed forces are entitled to 50 % of their last pay drawn as pension after 20 years service. The civilians pensions on the other hand are contributory. They pay 7 % of their emoluments all their life to get 33% of their last pay drawn as pension that too after 30 years service. No wonder that they are the greatest power on earth today. Can you match that great power. I dont think so unless you change your attitude towards the armed forces and not advance the ridiculous argument of we knowing the terms and condition before joining to justify your hostile and petty conduct.
I am glad i was able to have the civilians pensions converted to contributory scheme in 2001 while protecting those of the armed forces. I am however very vary of this trend continuing with the kind of games you can play.
POVERTY LINE
You have given some figures on poverty and want responsible persons to be concerned about it. You obviously claim to be the most responsible citizen of the nation, what you do is a different matter. Why do you not forego your salaries my friend. What do you need your salaries for. Your all needs are taken care of by other means the moment you take charge of your first appointment. Let us see you being the first volunteer doing this being so concerned about the state of affairs in the country.
Please tell me are the armed forces the only people who should be squeezed to save the nation from economic disaster. I suppose you think so that is why thngs like fixing of disability pension for armed forces is worked out less than the civilians besides making the procedure for entitlement much more difficult than that of the civilians. If the savings are still not enough then you grant them from a much later date. There are hundreds of such examples.
CIVILIANS WILL DEMAND OROP
Now the argument that the civilians will also demand orop and if not granted they would go to the court to claim it. This is the argument you advance finally to scuttle the efforts of the leadership. This is the bigget canard that i keep hearing. I have been interacting with major civilian unions. All of them have always been ready to support us for this cause and that too without demanding for themselves. For your information when in 1991 we were given OTI the civilians also demanded it but when told that this was for the armed forces only they as true patriots did not insist. Similar thing happened when in 2006 the govt granted parity with fifth cpc to us.
In case some people inspired by you people do go to the court for redressal they will certainly be welcome. The courts will also be ready to give them but then the courts will also tell them that the armed forces have been given these special privileges for their peculiar and difficult service conditions. They would then go on to tell them that they were willing to concede OROP to them if they were prepared to accept their service conditions also. Who among any of your colleagues are prepared to shed your position and accept these conditions. None. I am saying this because i have had an opportunity to settle this matter during the proceedings of the hlec in 1991.
There was an argument and the civilian big wigs wanted for themselves also what was being worked out for us. When nothng was resolving the issue i proposed that one chance each be given to the entire civil and armed forces personnel to change their service to the other if they so desired. Once that is given i said i bet my life that 100 % armed forces personnel would like to switch over and not one of the civilians would opt for the armed forces. There was a total furore but none to take up the challenge. They were not small fries, they were secretaries of all the ministries.
Finally since when have you started to know more about the feelings and pulse of the people more than the leadership. Every committee of the leadership have recommended strongly that orop be granted. The defense committee went to the extent of demanding that if there was no precedence then it should now be set to repay the deep debt of gratitude of the grateful nation to the armed forces for their sacrifices. Do you know this or not? Further do you know that almost 500 hon'ble members of parliament are committed through their party manifestos for giving the orop to the armed forces.
I suppose you dont care for these minions for you are not only bigger then them but also the nation.
I hope after going through this mail you would think on this matter and bring about attitudinal change not only within you but also the entire bureaucracy.
Sorry for taking too long in responding. It was too big an issue it had to take time even in the normal course. This mail was an attempt to demean us so it had to be given a special attention . Please therefore forgive me.
I have spent extra time so that i put down facts to enable our own veterans to know them and be able to give proper reply when required.
God bless you mr sehrawat and all my veterans.
Inderjit singh
From: Inderjit Singh
Date: Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 11:52 AM
Subject: FW: TUM MUJHE KHOON DO MAIN TUMHE OROP DOONGA
To: dk.sahrawat@gmail.com
cc:
Dear Mr Sehrawat and all the Veteran Friends
I am distressed to go through this misleading mail worked out to defame the Most patriotic community of the nation. A community that is ever ready to Sacrifice every thing including their lives for the unity integrity and Independence of the motherland. How sad. Coming from people who have done nothing but plundered the nation makes it disgusting.
I must tell you that i am the author of this concept of orop. I was the first Man to take it up with indiraji on 22 feb 1982. After that pursued it all the time and am still at it. We were instrumental for every step taken by successive Govts. If i said that the history of my association is the history of the welfare Measures by the govts i would not be exaggerating. You should therefore grant Me that i should know more about this matter than you who has sent this pack Of lies and half truths in the shape of misleading presentation for us to swallow.
From the tenor and tone of the mail it seems that mr sehrawat you proabely are a member of the elitist group of the natons services, if not then perhaps
There proxy for sending this rubbish. What can we expect from you but this absolute distortion of facts. When your colleagues can go to the Sacred house of parliament and speak lies and get away. How does it matter if you spoke few lies here and there and distort the facts in this mail.
If you want to see the lies spoken by your colleagues, we can have a separate meeting For that, for one can not cover those in any mail what ever one likes to do.
Now your basic lies that you have tried to impress us with. What I state is not heresay or things picked up from here and there. It is personal knowledge acquired by 30 years of dedicated work for this cause and After having forced the government to appoint these committees, been member of every committee appointed by the government except the inter ministerial ones you mentioned for obvious reasons.
A) it is right that the estimates committee had considered this on their own in 1982. They however did not reject it, on the contrary they desired that it be
Considered favorably. This kind of recommendaton lands the matter in the lap Of your colleagues. Once it comes there you play merry hell into it as they did with this report.
B) this issue was raised by us first time on 22 feb 1982 when I landed with 5000 Veterans at the pm's residence and presented the first ever memorandum which had five points, OROP being the top one. Indiraji was busy that day, so Rajivji accepted the memorandum on her behalf and promised to see that it was
accepted.
We held another rally in honour of respected Indiraji on 25 june 1983, she promised to do it in one go if the monsoon that year was normal and in phases if necessary. Soon after we announced 10,000.00 war medals return to the President of India and our C in C on 15 august 1983.
I was invited by Mr Venkataraman the RM on 10 August 1983 where I suggested that a committee or a commission be appointed to go into the entire gamut of
our problems and solve these. The RM took it to Indiraji and informed me that our suggestion had been accepted by her for appointment of a high level Committee. On this we dropped the idea of medals return.
This committee was headed by the RRM Mr KP Singhdeo. I was a special invitee for this committee. It made far reaching 68 recommendations covering all aspects. OROP was strongly recommended by them for consideration of the Govt and not as you have suggested its reference to the fourth CPC. This report was presented to the prime minister two days before her assassination. To our great misfortune she was snatched away by destiny.
Otherwise we would have got it in 1984. She was one leader who could put your colleagues where they belonged and fulfilled her promise given on 25 June 1983 to us.
This report then landed in the hands of your colleagues. Do you know what they did. They accepted 52 recommendations like we should maintain discipline in Society, and rejeected 16 of these which gave us any tangible benefits. OROP being the first one. To give you an idea about how low you can go I narrate.
One recommendation said orop should be accepted. Then the next one was that after this was accepted all special facilities given to ex servicemen should be
withdrawn. They accepted the second one without accepting the OROP. Ha ha ha. Isnt that amusing ?
C) I must educate you before proceeding further about a High Level Empowered Committee (HLEC). This is not a recommendatory committee, it is an empowered
Committee whose recommendations are final for implementation. The fact that you are bigger than them is a different matter.
The biggest lie you have spoken is that hgh level empowered committee Rejected orop and gave one time increase (OTI),
First let me put you wise about how this committee came about. In 1991 the Congress govt was heading a minority government. The opposition was
motivated by some politically motivated and misguided elements to move a resolution in parliament that if the govt did not immediately accept to implement vp singh govts ad hoc increase formula they will pull down the govt. This formula I had termed as betrayal of trust by Sh VP Singh the previous PM. Its implementation would have been disastrous for us. I moved swiftly to stop it. Walked into Mr Pawars office and demanded OROP instead. After heated exchanges he accepted my request for reconsideration. After another meeting and discussion he went to the parliament and announced the HLEC to improve the pensions.
I was made a member of this HLEC.
This committee was very inclined to give OROP but the economic conditions in which we sent our gold to UK to run the country prevented that. What was
given brought us almost there.
The bureaucrats wanted a clause to reject the OROP but I strongly opposed it. This was as a result not commented upon so that it did not close the door for its consideration and grant in future.
Despite the total opposition from the bureaucrats, the award of this Committee was very good. This award had to be converted into notification for implementation by the bureaucrats. You know what they did.
The notification did not even give 1/3 of what was given by the HELC . What they could not achieve during the proceedings of the committee they tried to
achieve it through the notification.
I took up the matter with the rm mr sharad pawar. He immediately appointed an anomalies removal committee again of bureaucrats. You know what they did. They created even more complicated anomalies that I could only have removed through the Fifth CPC.
After their experiences in the high level empowered committee where we did not let the bureaucrats get away with their lies they probably vowed never to
have such a committee in which we are represented. So far they have succeeded in this matter. They started the new system of having inter ministerial committees or group of ministers (GOM). Of these committees they never told us their composition or their charter. Nor did they tell us when they were meeting.
D) Your all information is wrong and inadequuate. The decision of the govt on fifth cpc report came on 18 july 1997. It gave modified parity to all govt servants including the Armed forces. We started an agitaional program at the red fort on 22 august 1997 that lasted for 107 days. We were seeking full parity which in other words meant OROP. On the second day the PM Mr gujral called for a meeting with me where I explained to him the entire problem. He promised to examine the matter and come back.
During this period we had three major rallies, besides indefinite fasts, medal returns and relay fasts. Ultimately a meeting with the Defence Secretary was fixed for 03 nov 1997. The secretary had been empowered by the PM to accept our three to four major demands for implementation after approval of the cabinet and rest could follow in normal routine. OROP and removal of 33 years conditionality were the ones accepted besides two more for implementation. The defence secretary reqested me to give him a paper on these four accepted demands which he could put up straight to the cabinet. I gave him the paper the next day.
The bureaucrats did not put these up quickly enough. Then to our misfortune the govt fell and the matter went into tizzy again.
The next govt took over. I gave seven demands to the next PM Mr Atal Bihari Vajpayee. My meeting was fixed with him on 26 july 2001. In that meeting he
accepted three demands and for the remaining four he appointed a committee headed by the RM, which was to give its report in three months. This committee never met for over six months and after that the RM wrote to me rejecting all the demands. We then called a rally at the Ram Lila Ground on feb 23 2003. On this rally we invited the chairman of the defence committee Mr Madan Lal Khurana. He promised to invite me to Parliament and after understanding the matter do every thing possible to help us.
Presentation they made a very strong report to the govt demanding that OROP be granted.
The bureaucrats formed an inter ministerial committee to find ways and means to reject the defense committee report. In their action taken report (ATR) they spoke blatant lies to reject the report.
In the meantime the govt changed. The new chairman of the defense committee called me to understand the mess created by this report. It was disgusting to see the level your clan had stooped to somehow reject our demands so strongly recommended by the committee. I picked up eleven major lies out of the report and submitted the paper to the chairman. On this he made another strong recommendation for its grant rejecting the ATR and as submitted by me asked for a high level empowered committee in which we were represented to resolve the issue.
I hope you now understand when this committee was formed and what they did.
E) After the second report of the defense committee the govt appointed a group of ministers (GOM), headed by Mr Pranab Mukherji the RM, to re examine the matter in may 2005 and not in jan 2005 as you have mentioned. This was not acceptable to me so I went to see the RM and told him so. He asked why I did not accept it.
I asked him in turn what was he going to base his recommendations on. Obviously what the bureaucrats put up to him. I gave him the paper on what lies hey spoke in the parliament and pointed out that if they could speak such lies in the parliament they were not going to say anything different to him. The result of such an exercise is a foregone conclusion. You would reject these submissions of ours. He was kind to tell me that the reference for this committee had come from PM’s office, he therefore could not change the format, but promised to invite me for presentation before he made his report. I then accepted to go along. When the bureaucrats learnt about it they went into action to scuttle my presentation. When i realized this I went and met the RM and requested him to stop the mischief of the bureaucrats, hold the meeting for my presentation and then give his award as the entire country's ex servicemen were waiting for the award.
I got the greatest shock of my life when he told me that he could not invite me. The bigger shock was to find such a senior minister like Mr Pranab Mukherji not being able to flfill his simple promise to hear me.
I wondered what could be the helplessness of the other ministers in front of these true masters of the nation .
Shocked and astonished i worked up my way to Soniaji with the help of my benevolent friend Mr KP Singhdeo and sought her intervention to save the day for us. Her kind intervention resulted in the govt announcing Parity with the fifth cpc rates on 25 jan 2006. In other words orop with fifth cpc rates.
This means that the GOM did not reject the OROP, they put the entire processes right by giving parity with the Fifth cpc rates and set a precedence for all future pay commissions to give armed forces parity with Their rates, in other words OROP.
I hope you now understand this matter better. In case you dont i can personally come and further clarify your doubts so that you do not make such sweeping statements in future.
F) The sixth pay commission stated what suited them to deny us the rightful dues. When i went to make my presentation they were working on the same assumption quietly supressing the fact of parity with fifth cpc rates given to the armed forces by this GOM. I clarified this to them and demanded that they have to maintain this precedence by giving us parity now with sixth cpc rates. When the report came i was shocked to see that they have continued with their canard of the fifth cpc and ignored the gom award.
I called them and was told that they have consciously taken the decision not to give parity with sixth cpc rates.
Obviously they had to do that to justify their mischief.
G) Well if the govt improved the pensions in the budget what is so great about it. They have done it for you as well. On the contrary the govt had failed to give the armed forces their rightful dues by not giving OROP.
Not only that what the govt has given is totally demeaning because they have totally downgraded the status of the armed forces.
SUPREME COURT EXAMINATION OF OROP. NAKRA CASE
It seems that you believe in the adage that if you continue to speak the same lie, a stage will come when every body would start accepting it as truth.
Let me educate you on this matter before i proceed. The nakra case was that the liberalized formula sanctioned by the government should be applied to all irrespective of date of retirement. The liberalized formula said that penson should be fifty percent of last pay drawn. The organization which filed this case, less said about them the better. They are actually the cause of our miserable plight. Some highly intelligent members of that organization, without applying their minds, filed the supreme court case saying that the govt had committed contempt of court by not granting us the orop on account of this ruling.
The court then proceeded to examine if the orop came under the ambit of the rulng on liberalized formula.
A word about these two things. Liberalized formula meant giving fifty per cent of last pay drawn as pension. That means whatever salary one was getting at the time of retirement he gets fifty percent of that salary only. Since at different points of time men got different rates of salary so they could only get different rates of pension under the purview of this order. The orop means that same rank personnel got the same pension irrespective of date of retirement.
How could they then get same pension for same rank under this order.. The court very rightly concluded that orop does not fall under the ambit of nakra case. The govt have therefore not violated their order. It was therefore dismissed. The govt in actual practice had given more than the liberalized formula gave by bringing all the sepoys to rs 150.00 pm pension even to those who drew far too less a salary and were drawing rs 4 and later rs 17 as pensions.
It was not orop that was rejected, in fact the contempt case was rejected. These gentlemen asked a wrong question from the court and got a wrong answer.
This case has not done any good for us, on the contrary this case has left a permanent handle in the hands of your colleagues to flaunt to the unwary leadership and have this matter rejected every time it comes up.
PEOPLE WHO CARE FOR THEIR NATION
The leadershp of the tiniest nation Singapore and the mightiest one USA , get on house tops and blair away that they would give the best tangible and non tangible benefits to that section of the society who do the most difficult job for the nation. Then they go onto elaborate that it is the armed forces which are doing the most difficult task for the nation and they would therefore get the best of tangble and non tangible benefits and then they give it with pride. What happens in our country. When the nation is confronted by a calamity natural or man made the armed forces are brought and squeezed to the hilt and after the job is done they are hanged on the nearest pole till they are dead.
IN A MEETING OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE OF THE VOLUNTARY agencies (scova) in the ministry of pensions, I was asked as to what are our demands. I after narrating the above facts told them I seek attitudinal change of the bureaucracy from hanging the armed forces to the nearest pole to gving them the best, every thing will be covered. There was a total furore and protestations but no answer given. You want to know what means you employ to deny us our rightful dues ? I can tell you separately if you so desire.
For your benefit i wish to tell you that the usa gives OROP to the armed forces and not to the civilians. Further the armed forces pensions are fully paid by the govt. The armed forces are entitled to 50 % of their last pay drawn as pension after 20 years service. The civilians pensions on the other hand are contributory. They pay 7 % of their emoluments all their life to get 33% of their last pay drawn as pension that too after 30 years service. No wonder that they are the greatest power on earth today. Can you match that great power. I dont think so unless you change your attitude towards the armed forces and not advance the ridiculous argument of we knowing the terms and condition before joining to justify your hostile and petty conduct.
I am glad i was able to have the civilians pensions converted to contributory scheme in 2001 while protecting those of the armed forces. I am however very vary of this trend continuing with the kind of games you can play.
POVERTY LINE
You have given some figures on poverty and want responsible persons to be concerned about it. You obviously claim to be the most responsible citizen of the nation, what you do is a different matter. Why do you not forego your salaries my friend. What do you need your salaries for. Your all needs are taken care of by other means the moment you take charge of your first appointment. Let us see you being the first volunteer doing this being so concerned about the state of affairs in the country.
Please tell me are the armed forces the only people who should be squeezed to save the nation from economic disaster. I suppose you think so that is why thngs like fixing of disability pension for armed forces is worked out less than the civilians besides making the procedure for entitlement much more difficult than that of the civilians. If the savings are still not enough then you grant them from a much later date. There are hundreds of such examples.
CIVILIANS WILL DEMAND OROP
Now the argument that the civilians will also demand orop and if not granted they would go to the court to claim it. This is the argument you advance finally to scuttle the efforts of the leadership. This is the bigget canard that i keep hearing. I have been interacting with major civilian unions. All of them have always been ready to support us for this cause and that too without demanding for themselves. For your information when in 1991 we were given OTI the civilians also demanded it but when told that this was for the armed forces only they as true patriots did not insist. Similar thing happened when in 2006 the govt granted parity with fifth cpc to us.
In case some people inspired by you people do go to the court for redressal they will certainly be welcome. The courts will also be ready to give them but then the courts will also tell them that the armed forces have been given these special privileges for their peculiar and difficult service conditions. They would then go on to tell them that they were willing to concede OROP to them if they were prepared to accept their service conditions also. Who among any of your colleagues are prepared to shed your position and accept these conditions. None. I am saying this because i have had an opportunity to settle this matter during the proceedings of the hlec in 1991.
There was an argument and the civilian big wigs wanted for themselves also what was being worked out for us. When nothng was resolving the issue i proposed that one chance each be given to the entire civil and armed forces personnel to change their service to the other if they so desired. Once that is given i said i bet my life that 100 % armed forces personnel would like to switch over and not one of the civilians would opt for the armed forces. There was a total furore but none to take up the challenge. They were not small fries, they were secretaries of all the ministries.
Finally since when have you started to know more about the feelings and pulse of the people more than the leadership. Every committee of the leadership have recommended strongly that orop be granted. The defense committee went to the extent of demanding that if there was no precedence then it should now be set to repay the deep debt of gratitude of the grateful nation to the armed forces for their sacrifices. Do you know this or not? Further do you know that almost 500 hon'ble members of parliament are committed through their party manifestos for giving the orop to the armed forces.
I suppose you dont care for these minions for you are not only bigger then them but also the nation.
I hope after going through this mail you would think on this matter and bring about attitudinal change not only within you but also the entire bureaucracy.
Sorry for taking too long in responding. It was too big an issue it had to take time even in the normal course. This mail was an attempt to demean us so it had to be given a special attention . Please therefore forgive me.
I have spent extra time so that i put down facts to enable our own veterans to know them and be able to give proper reply when required.
God bless you mr sehrawat and all my veterans.
Inderjit singh
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