Sunday, November 29, 2009

Help from Col K Malaiappan

From: Col K Malaiappan - []
Sent: 29 November 2009 20:51
To: Kamboj Chander; Arumugam Rama; Arumugam Rama
Subject: Re: AN EMAIL FROM IESM - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 803/2009 - 29 NOV 09 (H to Z)

Few veterans had joined IESM with their narrow interest or to give a fillip to their personal agenda
Dear Sirs
1. It is a clenstine move to thrawt the splendid service done by the IESM more so General Kadyan and his team of core committeee.
2. Since me formally studied Law in Dr Ambedkar Law College, Chennai, appeared Party in person in 2 WP as Petioner in the first and as respondent in the later which was opposed/defended/argued by the Advocate General of Tamil Nadu in WP No orders 1793 of 2004 dated 22-10-2004 & Wp No 21788 of 2008 dated 22-4-2009, got favourable orders in both the cases.
3. I do have the following practising Vetrans as Advocates with around 10 years of bar service at High Court of Madras who are thorugh in such maters:-
a) R Arumugam Ex IAF, MA, LLB, MBA, Advocate
b) Perumal Ex IAF, MA, LLB, Advocate
c) Khan Ex IAF, MA, LLB, ML, (Dr) Advocate
4. All are members of IESM and ready to extend any legal advice/assistance.

With best wishes and regards
Yours Sincerly
Colonel K Malaiappan (Retd), BE,MBA,(BL)
Phones 91 44 2532 5757 Office
91 44 2663 1251 Residence
91 94443 83683 Mobile

Thursday, November 26, 2009

IESM at UAE....Maj BS Kohli

From: kskohli kohli []
Sent: 26 November 2009 06:49
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: RE: ESM SITREP 25 NOV 09 - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 795/2009 - 25 NOV 09 (Hto Z)

Dear Brig Sahib,
Thank you for the mail.
My son Maj B S Kohli, SM settled in Dubai has just joined our org IESM and would be happy to take care of ESM issues. in UAE.

Can be contacted at:
PO BOX 8586
E Mail

He took voluntry retirement in 1989 after 11 years service as he was a Saichen Glacier casuality.

Kind regards and good wishes.
(Maj Gen KS Kohli, 5th JSW Course, New Delhi).

Wednesday, November 25, 2009

Mail by Wg Cdr SC Kapoor to the Tribune

EMAIL BY Wing Commander SC Kapoor

The Editor-in-Chief (Shri HK Dua)


We would hold ourselves unpardonably guilty of the very basic norms of etiquette if we do not observe even the minimal formality of thanking you for Brigadier Harwant Singh's letter that was published in your newspaper today (November 23).

Having said that, let's also hasten to add that the text of the letter as appearing in The Tribune is a big disappointment. We feel shortchanged.

We see no reason why on earth the letter should not have been published in full without excising/omitting any portion. (This certainly is no "editing" supposedly for reasons of "space", "clarity", "refinement" or whatever.) The letter carried a valid viewpoint, was politely worded, cogent and concise. What more is needed for a communication from your readers? (Copies of the letter sent and published are appended below for comparison.)

It seems someone down the line in his over zealousness has chosen to use the "delete" button with gay abandon.

In the bargain, the gravamen of arguments and the main thrust of the letter has been lost. This offends against the standards of journalistic ethics thus rendering it unacceptable to the veterans' groups to which Brigadier Harwant Singh and we all belong.

A survey was conducted and a whopping 94 percent of the respondents felt that it was not fair on your part not to publish the original text of the letter as submitted to you.

We request you, Sir, to consider the matter afresh and publish the letter as received by you, failing which an apology would be in order.

The defence personnel, by all accounts constituting your main catchment area, have always held THE TRIBUNE in high esteem. We hope we do not have to revise this opinion in a hurry because of just one incident.

Incidentally, reputed newspapers the world over devote half a page and more to readers' views. There are instances galore of letters that though highly acerbic and critical of the material published and opinions expressed in the newspapers, are carried with alacrity in the readers' columns. Why our mediapersons here have to feel unduly uncomfortable and chary of publishing what the readers write to them even if the communications from the latter conform to acceptable norms?

We will await your response, Sir.

Warm regards.


Wing Commander SC Kapoor (retd)
{Member, IESM Veterans Groups}
E-145, Sector 21, Jal Vayu Vihar
Noida-201 301



Mr Dua’s nomination to the Rajya Sabha is well deserved. However, it is also a moment of reflection. While scientists, artists, sports persons, et al, find a place in the Rajya Sabha, few of the defence personnel are thus nominated, even though their contribution to defending the integrity of the country is tremendous.

Non-representation of defence services in Parliament has rendered them voiceless. It is in the fitness of things that some hero of the Kargil war or some other prominent ex-serviceman be nominated so that concerns of defence services find a voice in Parliament.

Brig HARWANT SINGH (retd), SAS Nagar

AFT directs revision of Brigadier’s pension by Col Khera

First Decision

AFT directs revision of Brigadier’s pension

Vijay Mohan
Tribune News Service
Chandigarh, November 23
Within a week of being established, the Chandigarh Bench of the Armed Forces Tribunal (AFT) today disposed of the first case that came up before it, with directions to the government for revising the pension of a Brigadier in accordance with new scales.
The petitioner, Brig Raghu Kapoor, was getting pension at old rates that already stood abolished. Consequently, according to him, his retrial benefits amounting to over Rs 20 lakh were held up.
Acting upon the petition (OA-1 of 2009), the AFT Bench comprising Justice Ghanshyam Prashad and Lieut-Gen NS Brar directed the Central Government as well as the Principal Controller of Defence Accounts (Pensions) to undertake the necessary revisions within three months. The Bench also directed that a compliance report be forwarded to it for its information.
Brigadier Kapoor had contended that at the time of his retirement, he was drawing emoluments in accordance with the scales laid down by the Sixth Pay Commission. His pension, however, was fixed as per the old Fifth Pay Commission rates. According to the petition, he was supposed to draw a basic pension of Rs 34,000 per month, but was getting just Rs 16,000. This has also affected his gratuity, pension arrears and commutation value.
He said though about a year had lapsed since the new scales were brought into effect and he had retired a few months after the said notification was issued, his pension was fixed incorrectly. He had taken up the matter with the authorities concerned, both personally and through the Department of Sainik Welfare, Punjab, but no action was taken.
In fact, armed forces personnel who had retired during the period when the Fifth Pay Commission rates were in vogue have already been placed on the Sixth Pay Commission rates.

With Warm Regards
Col CJS Khera (Retd)
Gen Secy
Ex-Servicemen Joint Action Front
( Sanjha Morcha)


Dear Friends,
Jai Hind.

IESM besides working hard for the major objectives announced by them, has also started running the following –

· IESM Pension Cell
· IESM ECHS Division and
· IESM CSD Cell.
All the above cells and division are doing excellent work in their respective fields, the progress of which is being intimated to you from time to time.
IESM now wants to further expand the functions of Pension Cell. Therefore, there is an urgent need to establish an IESM Pension Sub-cell at Allahabad.

The Army HQ has also established a Pension Cell at Allahabad, which will be functioning from the premises of HQ Allahabad Sub Area.

Volunteers are required from among the ESM located at Allahabad, from All Three Services and All Ranks, to help IESM in establishing a Pension Cell of its own at Allahabad. Initially, we expect these volunteers to work with CGPDA (P) Allahabad through Army HQ Pension Cell. Slowly, we expect these IESM Volunteers to establish their direct link with the CGPDA (P) staff.

IESM is also trying to get official recognition to its pension cell through MoD.

The IESM Pension Cell at Allahabad will ensure that Government policies and procedures laid down by MoD, regarding pension and other related allowances, are implemented by CGPDA (P), all the banks and other pension paying authorities speedily, correctly and fairly.

The Pension Cell at HQ IESM will collect information about problems being faced by ESM from all over India (and abroad) in receipt of their pension and intimate these to the IESM Pension Cell at Allahabad for a follow up with CGPDA (P).

In turn, the Pension Sub Cell at Allahabad will keep the Pension Cell at HQ IESM updated about the progress of various points.

All relevant information received by the Pension Cell at HQ IESM will be disseminated to all ESM in India and abroad through emails, websites and notice through news papers and magazines if feasible.

We appeal to ESM settled at Allahabad to come forward and help IESM in resolving pension problems of their colleagues.


The volunteers should send their names to Vice Admiral Barin Ghose. His contact details are as under –

Vice Admiral Barin Ghose,
Head Pension Cell
Indian Ex Servicemen Movement
B 449 Sushant Lok I
Gurgaon 122002 Haryana
Phone 124-4044069, Mobile 9871381479
E Mail

Looking forward for an early response from ESM at Allahabad.

In Service of Indian Military Veterans
Chander Kamboj.


Dear Friends,
Jai Hind.

IESM besides working hard for the major objectives announced by them, has also started running the following –

· IESM Pension Cell
· IESM ECHS Division and
· IESM CSD Cell.
All the above cells and division are doing excellent work in their respective fields, the progress of which is being intimated to you from time to time.
IESM now wants to further expand the functions of Pension Cell. Therefore, there is an urgent need to establish an IESM Pension Sub-cell at Allahabad.

The Army HQ has also established a Pension Cell at Allahabad, which will be functioning from the premises of HQ Allahabad Sub Area.

Volunteers are required from among the ESM located at Allahabad, from All Three Services and All Ranks, to help IESM in establishing a Pension Cell of its own at Allahabad. Initially, we expect these volunteers to work with CGPDA (P) Allahabad through Army HQ Pension Cell. Slowly, we expect these IESM Volunteers to establish their direct link with the CGPDA (P) staff.

IESM is also trying to get official recognition to its pension cell through MoD.

The IESM Pension Cell at Allahabad will ensure that Government policies and procedures laid down by MoD, regarding pension and other related allowances, are implemented by CGPDA (P), all the banks and other pension paying authorities speedily, correctly and fairly.

The Pension Cell at HQ IESM will collect information about problems being faced by ESM from all over India (and abroad) in receipt of their pension and intimate these to the IESM Pension Cell at Allahabad for a follow up with CGPDA (P).

In turn, the Pension Sub Cell at Allahabad will keep the Pension Cell at HQ IESM updated about the progress of various points.

All relevant information received by the Pension Cell at HQ IESM will be disseminated to all ESM in India and abroad through emails, websites and notice through news papers and magazines if feasible.

We appeal to ESM settled at Allahabad to come forward and help IESM in resolving pension problems of their colleagues.


The volunteers should send their names to Vice Admiral Barin Ghose. His contact details are as under –

Vice Admiral Barin Ghose,
Head Pension Cell
Indian Ex Servicemen Movement
B 449 Sushant Lok I
Gurgaon 122002 Haryana
Phone 124-4044069, Mobile 9871381479
E Mail

Looking forward for an early response from ESM at Allahabad.

In Service of Indian Military Veterans
Chander Kamboj.

Monday, November 23, 2009

Non Payment of 6 PC dues by banks

Dear Members,

If your bank has not paid you your 6 PC dues so far pls forward following info to IESM Pension Cell or to me

Rank and Name
Name of the Bank
Branch details
Your Bank account number
If you want details of how much you are due pls fill up the following form and forward by mail to IESM Pension Cell


R W Pathak
Cdr Ravindra Waman Pathak I.N.(Retd)
Member and Coordinator IESM Pension Cell
(Mobile 919822329340)

Thursday, November 19, 2009



Stuck by the CONTINUED STONE-WALLED RESPONSE AND A DEAFENINGSILENCE from the Govt. in resolving the Pension issue of Armed ForcesPensioners (particularly the lower level ranks /cadres), the curiosityincreased to pore through the existing Govt orders. And sweetlysurprised to stumble upon the SIMPLE FORMULA OF FIXING THEMINIMUM/MAXIMUM PAY AND PENSIONS of the Central Govt Employees. Andhow they have passed on the BATON (SECRET OF THIS FORMULA) to theirsuccessor officials, unmindful of the financial DAMAGE they caused tothemselves and to their fellow employees(pensioners)(some of themmight have retired by now), besides inflicting the Govt with HUGEAVOIDABLE EXPENDITURE (in the form of the data,CP Commission Meetings,Interaction with various Depts at different places et.etc. Tours andTravels, The Voluminous and Thinck Bound Papered Reports, TheCeremonial Presentation of the Report to the Finance Minister etc.?).YES, YOU WILL NEVER KNOW! The said GOVT. MAGIC FORMULA of fixing of Minimum/MaximumPay/Pension of all Central Govt Employees and Pensioners, based on therecommendations of the CPCs can be seen below:

CIVILIAN GOVT EMPLOYEES -@ MIN/MAX.PAY/PENSION.IV CPC - 1.1.1986 / V CPC - 1.1.1996 / VI CPC - 1.1.2006@ MINIMUM PAY SCALE (INCREASE MULTIPLIED BY)Rs.750/- X (3.4) Rs.2550/- X (2.745) Rs.7000(withGP1800) @MAXIMUM PAY SCALE(INCREASE MULTIPLIED BY)Rs.9000/- X (3.34) Rs.30000/- X (3) Rs.90000/- @MINIMUM PENSION RATE(INCREASE MULTIPLIED BY)Rs.375/- X (3.4) Rs.1275/- X (2.745) Rs.3500/- @MAXIMUM PENSION RATE (INCREASE MULTIPLIED BY)Rs.4500/- X (3.34) Rs.15000/- X(3) Rs.45000/-
It is surprising to note that this FORMULA was quitely appliedby Successive Pay Commissions (from IV to V, from V to VI) forincreasing the Pay and Pension scales of the employees and thepensioners. And the figures are same for the Lowest and Highest PayScales and Pay Bands of the Central Govt Civilian Category employees,i.e. (

1)For Minimum Pay Scale/Pension Rate - Increase IV CPC Scalesby 3.4 Times and Fix the V CPC Scales. And then, Increase V CPCScales by 2.745 Times and fix the VI CPC scales( INCLUDES THE NEWLYDESIGNED GRADE PAY) in respect of the LOWEST SCALES/ CADRES,

(2) And For Maximum Pay Scale/Pension Rate - Increase IV CPCScales by 3.34 Times and Fix the V CPC Scales. And then, Increase VCPC Scales by 3 Times and fix the VI CPC scales, in respect of theHIGHEST SCALES/ CADRES. SURPRISED WITH THIS SIMPLE FORMULA APPLICATION? THIS IS,JUST, AS SIMPLE AS DRINKING WATER. Is it not? YES and NO? THERE IS A SMALL TWIST TO THE STORY. While the Multiplying factor, 3.4 (of V CPC), in r/o theLowest Side Scales of Pay/Pension Rates, was brought down to 2.745(of VI CPC), a reduction of 0.655, but the factor,

3.34(of V CPC), inr/o the Highest Side Scales of Pay/Pension Rates, was brought down to3.00 (of VI CPC), a mere reduction of 0.34. The deliberate reductionin r/o the Lowest Scales was more by 0.315, over the Highest scales. RULE OF LAW, EQUITY, FAIR PLAY AND NATURAL JUSTICE, demandsat least equal treatment given to all (here w.r.t. settled andexisting scales) and in fact, BETTER TREATMENT OR DISPENSATION GIVENTO THE LOWEST CADRE. HENCE, the CORRECT MULTIPLYING FACTOR, must andshould have been 3.4 (of V CPC) and 3.34(of VI CPC) (equal toofficers' factor of V CPC) for the lowest cadre/scale. As a result of this changed Multiplying factor of 3.34 (of VICPC) in respect of the Lowest Cadre employees, the Minimum PayScale/Pension Rate, w.e.f. 1.1.06, can be arrived at - (1) Min. Pay Scale of Rs.2550 X 3.34 = 8517 R/off to Rs.8520/-(including a GP of Rs.1800/-) (2) Min. Pension Rate of Rs.1275 X 3.34 =4259 R/0ff to Rs.4260(50% of Rs.8520/- Min.Pay)

The above Just and Correct Pay/Pension Fixation of Minimumshall go a longway, and the Central Govt Employees and the Pensionerswould be indebted to the Govt, for this kind/benign gesture.

Now, the same GOVT. MAGIC FORMULA of fixing of Minimum/MaximumPay/Pension of all Armed Forces Personnel/Pensioners, based on therecommendations of the CPCs can be seen below:------------------------------------------------------------------------

ARMED FORCES PERSONNEL/PENSIONERS-@ MIN/MAX.PAY/PENSION. IV CPC - 1.1.1986 / V CPC - 1.1.1996 / VI CPC - 1.1.2006@ MINIMUM PAY SCALE (INCREASE MULTIPLIED BY)Rs.900/-X (3.3) Rs.3050/- X (3.02) Rs.9200/-(withGP+MSP) @MAXIMUM PAY SCALE(INCREASE MULTIPLIED BY)Rs.9000/- X (3.34) Rs.30000/- X (3) Rs.90000/- @MINIMUM PENSION RATE(INCREASE MULTIPLIED BY)Rs.375/- X (3.4) Rs.1275/- X (2.745) Rs.3500/- @MAXIMUM PENSION RATE (INCREASE MULTIPLIED BY)Rs.4500/- X (3.34) Rs.15000/- X(3) Rs.45000/-

It is surprising to note that this FORMULA was quitely applied bySuccessive Pay Commissions (from IV to V, from V to VI) for increasingthe Pay and Pension scales of the Armed Forces Personnel/ Pensioners.And the figures are same for the Minimum/Maximum Pay/Pensions of theHighest Pay Scales/Pay Bands of the AF Personnel/Pensioners, but theMin/Max pay/pensions in r/o lowest rank had been considerably reducedarbitrarily and for no apparent reason, i.e. (1)For Minimum Pay Scale/Pension Rate - Increase IV CPC Scales by3.3Times and Fix the V CPC Scales. And then, Increase V CPC Scales by3.02 Times and fix the VI CPC scales( INCLUDES THE NEWLY DESIGNEDGRADE PAY+ MILITARY SERVICE PAY) in respect of the LOWEST SCALES/RANKS PERSONNEL,

(2) And For Maximum Pay Scale/Pension Rate - Increase IV CPC Scales by3.34 Times and Fix the V CPC Scales. And then, Increase V CPC Scalesby 3 Times and fix the VI CPC scales, in respect of the HIGHESTSCALES/ CADRES. SURPRISED WITH THIS SIMPLE FORMULA APPLICATION? THIS IS, JUST, ASSIMPLE AS DRINKING WATER. Is it not? YES and NO? THERE IS A SMALL TWIST TO THE STORY. While the Multiplying factor, 3.3 (of V CPC), in r/o the Lowest SideScales of Pay/Pension Rates, was brought down to 3.02 (of VI CPC), areduction of a .28, but the factor, 3.34(of V CPC), in r/o the HighestSide Scales of Pay/Pension Rates, was brought down to 3.00 (of VICPC), a mere reduction of 0.34, unlike the Civilian Govt.Employees.The deliberate reduction in r/o the Lowest Scales was a mystery. RULE OF LAW, EQUITY, FAIR PLAY AND NATURAL JUSTICE, demands at leastequal treatment given to all (here w.r.t. settled and existing scales)and in fact, BETTER TREATMENT OR DISPENSATION GIVEN TO THE LOWESTCADRE. HENCE, the CORRECT MULTIPLYING FACTOR, must and should havebeen 3.4 (of VI CPC) for the lowest Ranks/Scales. As a result of this changed Multiplying factors of 3.4 (for V CPC andfor VI CPC) in respect of the Lowest Ranks/ Scales AFPersonnel/Employees, the Minimum Pay Scale(incl.GP+MSP)/Pension Rate,w.e.f. 1.1.96/1.1.06, can be arrived at - (1) Min. Pay Scale of Rs.900 X 3.4 = 3050/-) w.e.f. 1.1.96, and 3050 X3.4=10370- (6370+ GP(2000)+MSP(2000) w.e.f. 1.1.2006. (2) Min. Pension Rate of Rs.1525/- w.e.f.1.1.96 and 1525 X3.4 =5185-(50% of Rs.10370/- Min.Pen), w.e.f. 1.1.2006. The 100%Calssification Allowance (Highest) + the 3 GCB Pay (120+240) be addedto this figure, thus the Min pension would be = Rs.5285+360 =5645/-(for GP Y ACs of IAF and their equivalents) For all other ranks and similar dispensation of multiplying factor,with slight variations here and there could be applied for remedy ofall such anomalies, and put an end to the problem so that all stakeholders get justice and peace. The above Just and Correct Pay/PensionFixation of Minimum shall go a longway, and the Armed ForcesPersonnel/Pensioners would be indebted to the Govt, for thiskind/benign gesture.----------------------------------------------------------------

Letter to the Editor- Nomination to Rajiya Sabha by Brig Harwant Singh

From: Brig Harwant Singh (Retd)

Date: Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 9:36 AM

Subject: Letter to the Editor- Nomination to Rajiya Sabha

To: Tribune -
Cc: The Tribune , The Tribune



We the Defence Fraternity, congratulate Mr HK Dua the Editor in Chief of the Tribune Group for his most deserved nomination to Rajiya Sabha (the Tribune 19 November ’09). Earlier, Mr Shekhar Gupta, of the Indian Express , an equally deserving case, was similarly nominated . While such nominations are most laudable , yet they call for reflection. Could these not be construed as the Establishment’s attempt to ‘oblige’ the media with a quid pro quo motive ? Also are all great achievers in other professions equally ‘recognised’ and thus rewarded? While the scientists , artists , sports personalities, etc, find place in the RS , few if any of the defence personnel are thus nominated, even though their contribution to defend the integrity of the country is maximum , yet , the recognition given to them is minimal. Though Gens JS Aurora and Shankar Roy Chaudhary did go to RS , they did so as representatives of a political party but were NOT ‘nominated’ for their great personal achievements , as in the instant case . Non representation of Defence Services in the Parliament has rendered them ‘Voiceless’. It is in the fitness of things that some hero of Kargil War or some other most prominent Ex-Serviceman be similarly ‘recognised’ so that the concerns of the of the Defence Services are given a suitable ‘Voice’ at the Parliamentary level .

With Warm Regards,
Yours' Sincerely,

Brig Harwant Singh (Retd),
Address :- 54 , Phase- 7, MOHALI . (Pb).PIN 160 062
Phones :- 91+98144 32554 and 91+172- 2270154

Rejoinder to Col Abel's article by CDR.AKEEL SHAIKH I.N.(retd)

----- Original Message -----
From: naseemakeel shaikh
Cc: Chander Kamboj
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 10:54 PM
Subject: Col. Abel's take on why the British left India

Dear Col.Abel,

Your view is that an impoverished GREAT Britain, was just too tired to continue to "manage " their Empire, and thus left India. You also say that the common man was tired and only wanted to rebuild his home, and that the consensus among the leaders and the people was that India had become ungovernable and there was nothing to be gained from continuing to "manage " the Empire.

The fact that we all agree on is that India HAD become ungovernable. Shall we then agree that Great Britain had become unable to govern it since the will of the people of India was manifesting itself in a variety of ways? Britain's inability to continue to govern the Indian people is being linked to it's heroic efforts to save the world from the tyranny of Fascism and Communism, bringing it to the edge of it's capabilities, and there was nothing more to be gained from "Staying On." Nothing more to be gained by whom ? By India from the kind ministrations of the British,or the British after centuries of ruling India, having come in in the guise of traders?

This reminds me of an interesting talk by an American when I was in Vishakapatnam in 1964..He was part of a delegation from the U.S.A. He propounded the view that slavery in America, and the ongoing segregationist policies, were being seen in a wrong light.He claimed that the relationship between Negroes ( this was before it became politically incorrect to use this rascist word) & the whites was a love-hate kind of relationship and often platonic, and that the blacks in fact loved the whites. Since the rest of the audience was too polite and mature to laugh out loud, I decided in my immaturity to stand and ask this gentleman if he was serious, and what made him think that this platitude would be swallowed by the audience.

In the same vein I would like to know whether the same Government which condoned acts such as Jallianwalla Bagh, and had been systematically enriching itself from it's "management"of India, would leave India at a time when it could have speeded up it's own rehabilitation by squeezing it more energetically.

Conquerors and managers have traditionally attempted to garb themselves as benefactors. The U.S.A. was built by virtually extinguishing the Native American population,and exploiting Chinese and black labour.The Indian Reservations in the U.S.A. are like sores which will never go away,forced on the native Americans through blood-shed and chicanery and downright cheating.This is not MY view,but of a number of Western Scholars.

I think I will ask readers of your response in enlightening us whether they agree with your analysis, and whether there is any material evidence available anywhere which supports this view.

Yours sincerely,


Donation by Col LS Braria

From: LSBraria Braria
To: C S Kamboj vsm
Sent: Thu, 19 November, 2009 3:28:54 PM
Subject: membership IESM
Dear Brig Kamboj,

As advised , I have yesterday only sent by post another cheque for Rs 5000/00 to I E S M A/C 06162000001330 Towards membership and balance as contribution.
Due to my illness I was not able to operate the computer.

With regards

L S Braria.
(Col LS Braria, retired in 1981, as DDST AT&K Area)

Views of Lt Gen Jagdish Chander ....Joy Ride in Sukhoi

From: jagdish chander []
Sent: 19 November 2009 10:40
To: Kamboj Chander

Hi Kamboj,
I wonder what is the purpose of the President of India Ms Pratibha Patil taking a joy ride in a IAF Sukhoi jet. Surely these planes are not meant for joy rides/festivities of the rich and famous .At least not so in a poor country like India. It is a shame that no son of a gun in the media including Mr Shekhar Gupta ( self appointed watch dog of corruption) has had the guts to raise this as an issue which needs to be condemned . I know a lot of people will give the argument of she being the Supreme Commander! Let them not fool themselves. We all know the symbolism of that appointment. It does not grant the President to use the Services for seeking cheap thrills at the expense of the state.
I wonder what is the opinoin of others. Or is it - that it dosent matter.
Lt Gen Jagdish Chander(Retd) (Former DG ASC and Former MD CSD)

Defence Services Officers Association of Indo Canadians

Dear Cdr. Punchhi,

Defence Services Officers Association of Indo Canadians
(DSOI Canada)
Copy of a letter sent to IESM in Feb 2009 is reproduced herewith.
Please extend maximum support to IESM. They are doing a great job.
contact for IESM:
Brigadier C. S. Kamboj, VSM., VETERAN,
Email -

Subject: Lost Glory!

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 12:58:22 -0500

Wishing the Movement a great Success!
Some additional suggestions are as follows:

Establish a permanent rank of Chief of Defence staff by selection and merit.
His position should be next to the Prime Minister at all Public Ceremonies
Bangla Desh Government should be asked to invite a contingent of Indian Army, Navy and Air Force to attend all their functions connected to their Independence Day Celebrations.

Design and issue a Lapel Pin with the words 'Armed Forces Veteran' and instruct all civil servants including the IAS officers to show great respect to our Veterans and serving soldiers.

The status of the Armed Forces personnel be brought to the level of pre-partition days or in line with the British Army.

The name 'Ex Serviceman be replaced with the more modern and respectful name 'Armed Forces Veteran.' (Already done).

A separate pay commission be created for the Armed Forces and the pay hike should be automatic. The soldiers should not have to beg for a pay rise every time the inflation goes up.(Already done)

Some famous battles victories such as 'the battle of Longewala' (where a complete Armoured brigade of the Pakistani Army was destroyed) be celebrated at National level and the Officers and Men who took part in these battles be recognized and their stories of bravery aired on all TV channels. This will boost the National pride and encourage many young men and women to join the Armed Forces.

Public should be banned from wearing any article resembling the Defence Forces uniform at any time. We see some private Security Guards wearing an Army General's cap with red band standing out side a building and greeting the visitors. Such a practice is an insult to our Defence Forces. The Old Defence Services Regulations (DSR) clearly makes a mention of this rule.

The practice of frequently using the regular Army in aid of civil power should be discouraged. Para Military Forces are meant for this job and must be deployed when required.

Please pass on these suggestions to all concerned.

Col. Kulvinder (Kul) Singh, psc
Armed Forces Veteran


Kulvinder (Kul) Singh
Armed Forces Veteran
Cell: 416-41...

Reply E-mail:

Air Force Vice-Chief hits out at politicians ..Tribune

Air Force Vice-Chief hits out at politicians

Tribune News Service

New Delhi, November 19

The Vice Chief of the IAF, Air Marshal PK Barbora, today dropped a proverbial bombshell. He summarised that “politics” over defence purchases impinged on the country's military requirements and plans to buy new equipment.
In a way he blamed the entire political class of stalling defence projects just to hit out at political opponents. Making some of the most forthright comments, Barbora said: “Internal politics over the years is such that whatever defence requirements are cleared by the government, they are opposed by the opposition parties and the same happens when roles change and opposition sits in the government." ”All this impinges very badly on our defence requirements,” he told said at a seminar ‘Energising aviation sector in India’ organised by the CII. Barbora also painted a dismal picture about the country's defence exports saying: “We don't even match up with Pakistan.”
On the present status of the country's capabilities in the aerospace sector, he said India was happy producing small parts of aircraft and exporting them to Airbus in Europe, but China has already started building whole aircraft for the same company.
Air Marshall Barbora asked the private companies to learn reverse engineering processes the way China did to develop most of its defence technologies. “Forget about ethics. China has done all the reverse engineering. Has anyone ever had the courage to ask China why are you doing it? No one cares a hoot. If you can't do it yourself, you should know how to do reverse engineering.”
Notably two days after he had created a major controversy with his comments over induction of women as fighter pilots, Barbora today issued an apology saying: “My remarks concerning induction of women fighter pilots into the IAF have come in for a lot of discussion in the media. I would like to clarify that my remarks concerning ‘off-spring’ and ‘imposing some conditions’ were my own personal opinion and not that of the IAF or the Defence Ministry.”

Remembering the brave by Lord Meghnad Desai

Subject: Lord Megnath Desai
Dear Chander

It may be interesting for the Report My Signals readers to read an article by Lord Megnath Desai, member of the British House of Lords on remembering the brave in Indian Express on Sunday.

The main theme of the article is that the Indian soldiers by fighting bravely in the two world wars were as much responsible for our freedom as the political leadership that led by non-violent techniques. His concluding remarks are telling by asking the government not to treat the armed services as 'step children'.

Kind regards,
Maj Gen VK Khanna (Retd)

Wednesday, November 18, 2009

Help to IESM by Veteran Sharad Paranjape from USA

Sent: Mon, 16 November, 2009 12:43:47 AM
Subject: Voluntary help

Dear Gp Capt Gandhi:

I have read the email of Gen Kadyan regarding voluntary help. I hereby renew my offer of voluntary help which I made to Maj Gen P Renjen some months ago.

I am sitting in U.S.A. but I am an exceptionally fast typist, well conversant with MS WORD and EXCEL, and in addition I have a reasonably good handwriting. I can undertake any clerical, typing, data entry or accounting work for IESM.

I will gladly bear any couriering expenses of documents to me or back from me to you, if they cannot be emailed.

I will call you on telephone at my expense in case you wish to discuss anything with me on phone at any time. In case you should ever have the necessity to call me I shall bear those expenses also.

This sincere offer is coming from an IESM member who has already donated more than Rs. 5700 in the past and does not mind spending time, effort and additional money in furtherance of IESM's cause.


Sharad & Nandini Paranjape
372 Central Park West #19Y
New York NY 10025, U.S.A.
Phone: 212-316-6575

RIN Mutiny by Colonel Maurice Abel, UK

Dear Brigadier Kamboj,

While the premise of the great importance of the actions of the Indian Services in helping the British to decide to leave India is very credible and probable, the conversation with Clement Attle needs to be understood in a wider context; specifically from a UK and world perspective.

This was earlier in an article in the Tribune at
RIN mutiny gave a jolt to the British
The ratings mutiny in the Royal Indian Navy made the British realise it was time to leave India. Dhananjaya Bhat on the uprising that took place 60 years ago on February 18

My responses are as follows in sequence to the discussion on the Veterans site.

"Dear All,
A very interesting series of comments and observations.
However, there is one glaring omission (which is very understandable seen from an Indian perspective)
The major reason why the British gave India Independence was that WW II had impoverished Britain, their industries and infrastructure had been destroyed to a considerable extent in the bombing raids, millions of people had lost their lives, there was an acute manpower shortage, cities were in ruins, industries had been geared to wartime production of military goods, their economy was in meltdown, their merchant shipping had been damaged and millions of tons of shipping sunk, etc., they owed the US huge amounts for the lend -lease shipping, and vast amounts for war materiel, food , etc., all their cash reserves and stockpiles of commodities were exhausted, - they were in a word 'broke', and did NOT have the energy, manpower, or interest to struggle with the Indians who they felt had become ungovernable and it was NOT worth their while anymore. They felt they had saved the world from the tyranny of Nazism and the fascism of Japan and had done enough for the world.
The British sent John Maynard Keynes ( from their Treasury Dept and a noted economist) to get the US Govt to clear their debt to the amount of $3 Bn ( a huge amount at the time) but the Senate did not agree and the British had to get a interest bearing loan instead. At this time also Churchill's ( he had just lost the election in 1945) 'Iron Curtain' speech in the US about the Soviet take over of Eastern Europe suddenly caused the US Govt to change its policy - they started the Marshall Plan which gave $15 Bn to Western European countries to rebuild as they were also shattered in WWII and the fear of Communism taking over Western Europe as well became a major US concern. Britain got an $3Bn in the Marshall Plan (In addition to the loan).

Maurice Abel

This is a very interesting anecdote.
In reply Attlee cited several reasons, the most important of which were the INA activities of Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose, which weakened the very foundation of the British Empire in India, and the RIN Mutiny which made the British realise that the Indian armed forces could no longer be trusted to prop up the British. When asked about the extent to which the British decision to quit India was influenced by Mahatma Gandhi’s 1942 movement, Attlee’s lips widened in smile of disdain and he uttered, slowly, ‘Minimal’."

My comments:

Recently I mentioned that the British thought that India was ungovernable, which Atlee amplied mentioning the INA and the IN Mutiny Although Atlee is reported to have discounted the influence of the 'Quit India' movement of 1942, it contributed to the general public view in Britain among the British people that India did not want to be governed by Britain. This has to be considered in British context Britain is a small densely populated island - with half the land area of France but with about the same population. Britain produces only about 30% of the food it needs and the climate does not help much. Traditionally it developed sheep rearing in the less arable hilly areas and its wealth came from the export of wool and animal husbandry products of high value like milk, cheese, meat and butter etc., on the limited land available and for domestic use also. Fishing is also a important source for food. It also depends on producing high tech goods to export and ideas and services in the form of music, art, acting, financial expertise, etc.
Britian is both insular because of its island heritage, but also outward looking for reasons of trade.
Maintaining and managing a large empire by a small group of people is a national project/ endeavour of great magnitude. Ordinary people and the general viewpoint also influences politicians and their policies, both directly and in their guts - they are also people.
WWI and WWII which they were fought mainly alone ( the US joined much later in both the wars) and they suffered great losses of their people and exhausted their resources greatly.
After WWII the people wanted to rebuild their homes, businesses, factories and infrastructure , have a decent quality of life - they were still on food rationing well into the 1950s so it is unsurprising that few in Britain wanted to hang on in India , 'for what'? they would rightly ask? "

Best regards
Maurice Abel – Email ID -
(Colonel Maurice Abel, UK)

MPs don't get impressed by Maj Gen APS Chauhan

From: Sainiksangh []
Sent: 18 November 2009 10:50
To: Kamboj Chander

MPs don't get impressed by articles, logic or duty etc . If they did our world would have changed long back.They are after all the product of democracy (lootocracy) we have chosen to practice . However as a promotional exercise for keeping our cerebral joints greased this is at least a useful engagement in service of others.
jai hind
(Maj Gen APS Chauhan, Vice President All India Ex Soldiers League)

ps in view nation building seems no loger a role of the Lok Sabha and has by peoples consent been assigned to cricketers why not start addressing our demands to Tandulkar!

REMEMBERING THE BRAVE OF INDIA by Col Govind Ram Sajjanhar, Mhow

From: Govind Sajjanhar
To: Shashi Kanwal
Cc: Brig Chandar C Kamboj
Sent: Tue, 17 November, 2009 1:49:29 PM
Dear Brig Kanwal & Brig Kamboj ,

Yes , what Lord Meghnad Desai has said is also true of Australia . On Sunday 11th Nov we were in Australia & saw the ceremony at the Shrine of Rememberence in Melbourne .It was a moving Spectacle . People had gathered in thousands & the Premier of Victoria gave a speech honouring those who had fought as part of the Allied Forces during the First & the Second World Wars .

Having said that & also having read what the seniors have said about the apathy & lack of awareness of the public about the Armed Forces we cannot help but blame the Political leadership of our great Country .
I do not feel guilty even for a moment to say that we are afterall NOT so great a Country ! We are at best " Opportunists & uncaring people " , otherwise with all the resources available we are the poorest of the poor & in some ways worse than some of the African countries .

What the solution to this is i donot know ! Our Attitude needs to change radically . But how is the question which we hope will be found by some younger & more emancipated leaders that we would like to see in the future .

With warm regards ,

Govind Sajjanhar
(Col Govind Ram Sajjanhar, Mhow, currently visiting Australia)


From: Brig V A Subramanyam
Sent: Wed, 18 November, 2009 9:55:02 PM

Am sure that there is some "evidence" to justify that the 'jobs' in the Armed Forces are much different than those in the civilian environment, as given out in the studies carried out in the US and UK. Maybe this could be used to buttress the case of OROP et all.

You may consider publishing the same in RMS and possibly get additional inputs.

"Like birds, let's leave behind what we don't need to carry..............
Grudges, Sadness, Pain, Fear, and Regrets...Fly Light."
Have a Wonderful Day!
== Subramanyam


From: balakrishnan hariharan
Date: 2009/11/18

Dear Sir,

Reference Gautam Datt's " IAF not yet ready to have women pilots " - (TNIE-18 NOV).

For starters, the title of the report is ' misleading ', as women pilots in the IAF are already flying in the ' transport ' and ' helicopter ' squadrons !! This is tacitly acknowledged
in the report: ' The IAF thinks it is economically unfeasible to have women fighter pilots - -' !! Thus ' Not ready to have women pilots ' in the headline, becomes ' economically unfeasible to have women fighter pilots' !! Talk of ' journalistic accuracy '!!

That apart, there is another infirmity in the report: ' Several air forces around the world have allowed women to be fighter pilots '. That doesn't answer the crucial question: ' Do women fighter pilots FLY COMBAT MISSIONS'?

It will be instructive and educative for Datt & Co at TNIE to note, since we Indians have this slavish habit of 'aping the West', that in 1992, the United States constituted a Presidential Commission for precisely this purpose – to study the role of women in the American military. This is what the commission report stated bluntly :

" Decisions on the principle questions before the Commission -- whether American women should be assigned to combat on land, at sea or in the air -- involved a wide variety of issues and concerns. They include the history and nature of war, physiology, psychology, sociology, family and cultural values, the legal consequences of a change in the law, and most importantly, the overarching, classic concerns of the military itself: combat readiness, unit cohesion and military effectiveness -- defined as the ability to deter aggression and if necessary, to fight and win wars".

Again. " Civilian society forbids employment discrimination. But the military, in building fighting units, must be able to choose those most able to fight and win in battle. There is good reason for this. In a combat unit serving on land, at sea or in the air, the inability of any member of the group to perform at levels demanded by the battlefield can present a direct risk to the lives of others and to the accomplishment of the military mission . This is one of several reasons why the Armed Forces differ in many important respects from civilian employers, including police forces that preserve order close to home. It is a separate society governed by a different set of rules and regulations because its principle purpose is to fight and win wars".

The Commission then concluded : " Service members are encouraged to pursue opportunities and career enhancements in the Armed Forces, limited only by the needs and good of the Service. But when it comes to combat assignments, the needs of the military must take precedence over all other considerations, including the career prospects of individual service members. The military service is not a corporation, and being a soldier, sailor or airman is more than just a job. Civil society protects individual rights, but the military, which protects civil society, must be governed by different rules".

A similar study was undertaken by the British military too in 2002 and its findings, in essence, were no different from the findings of the US Presidential Commission. An extensive study ordered by British Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon had reportedly recommended that women should not be allowed to fight in the front line. Citing evidence gathered over 18 months, the "Combat Effectiveness Gender Study" concluded that females lack the strength and stamina needed to serve in the infantry, armored regiments, Royal Marines or the RAF Regiment, the Air Force’s infantry unit.

In compiling the study for review by the Chiefs of Staff, British Army officials gathered information from several other countries with gender-integrated armed forces, and carried out tests of physical capabilities in Wales. According to the London Sunday Times, June 24, 2001, the women performed comparatively poorly in physical tasks. According to Army Times, a British medical report released in June of 2001 found that the rate of injuries among military women in co-ed training had tripled to 23 per 1,000 in 1996, from a 1992 rate of 8 per 1,000. (June 25, 2001) On January 3, 2002, an Army doctor confirmed that female soldiers were paying for "equal opportunities" with a much higher risk of injury.

The Ministry of Defence (U.K.) study concluded that it could not predict with certainty the impact on infantry and armor units from introducing women into their ranks. Secretary Hoon affirmed on May 22 that he was not prepared to risk the effectiveness of front-line infantry and armored combat teams in the absence of any hard evidence that allowing women to serve in such units would increase their capabilities. Women in the British military will be allowed to serve in 70 percent of all army roles, but they will be kept out of units that must "close with the enemy."

The IAF Vice Chief was spot on when he stated: " India can select some women to be fighter pilots, but they would be merely showpieces - -". And then have them posted at Southern Air Command, Trivandrum, or Car Nicobar, but not at Halwara, Adhampur or Pathankot etc!! Does Gautam Datt have any inkling of what it takes to fly a 'combat sortie' in a high performance fighter like the SU30-MKI? Does he have any knowledge of the physical effort it takes to be a ' Fighter Combat Leader ', and the toll it takes on the human body when one pulls 4 or 5G? Can a woman fighter pilot stand up to the physical rigours of being strapped to the cockpit in the 'Operational Readiness Platform'? Lastly, does Datt have any idea of the ethos of a 'Fighter Squadron' of the IAF?

This report reminded me of a similar media created controversy in 2006, on the statement of 'Women in Cambat Units' of the Army, by the then Vice Chief of Army Staff - Lt.Gen S.Pattabiraman. It died a 'natural death', but not before 'muck' was raised by the rabble rousers in the polity, much to the detriment of the Indian Army. I also query Datt as to what has the President flying in a SU30 for 10 or 20 minutes in most probably 'level flight' got to do with regular women fighter pilots in combat squadrons? Regret to say the analogy is wide off the mark!!

Lt.Gen.(retd) R.Narasimhan, wrote in the media on 02 Apr 2002:
" Unfortunately we do not have trained war correspondents who can analyse the strategic scenario and come to the right conclusions. In this day of instant TV wrong projections are made much to the detriment of the security of the country and morale of the Armed Forces who are doing their duties in an exemplary manner". How True Sir !!

Warm Regards

Capt(retd) H.Balakrishnan, I.N.

Arrears of pension of Major Generals with notional pay 20400

From: RP Mishra

To: Brig CS Kamboj
Sent: Mon, 16 November, 2009 4:54:10 PM

Subject: Arrears of pension of Major Generals with notional pay 20400
Dear Brigadier Kamboj,
earlier you have circulated worksheets for working out arrears of those Major Generals whose pension had increased by 400 and 450 wef Oct 2001.

Notional pay of some pre-1996 retired Major Generals has been fixed at 20400 which results in increase of pension by 650.

I am attaching a worksheet, in words format, calculating arrears for pension increase by 650. Arrears, if paid on 01 Nov 2009 work out to 85156.

Interest on arrears, if payment is delayed beyond this date would be 448 per month.

AVM RP Mishra
D-187 Jal Vayu Vihar, Sector-30, Gurgaon-122001
Telephone 0124-4032590

Tuesday, November 17, 2009

AGM Notice of IESM on 13 Dec 2009 at AVCC Noida

on 13 Dec 09, Sunday at 1000h at AVCC sector 37 NOIDA
Dear All

Please refer to the previous notice for AGM dated 27 Oct 09 regarding Annual General Body meeting of IESM.

Due to some administrative problems it is not possible to hold AGM of IESM at Bangalore on 22 Nov 09. AGM of IESM is being rescheduled as given below.

AGM of IESM is now being planned to be held on 13 Dec 09 Sunday at 1000h to 1200h at AVCC, Sector 37 Noida 201301. Agenda for the meeting is given below.

1.Welcome by Gen Sec
2.Address by Chairman.
3.To receive, consider and adopt the audited Balance Sheet as on 31 March 2009, Income & Expenditure Account for the period ended on that date and the Auditor’s Report thereon.
4.To appoint auditors for the year 2009-2010.
5.Discussion on the points raised by the members if any.
6.Vote of thanks.

All members are requested to attend the meeting and send their confirmation of attendance to the Gen Sec at the earliest. All members are requested to make arrangement for travel and stay at Noida/Delhi. Members are requested to forward their points for inclusion in the agenda.

Duly audited account statement of year 08-09 is enclosed, Guide map to reach AVCC noida is attached for the convenience of all members.


Gp Capt VK Gandhi VSM
Gen Sec IESM
L - 48, Sector - 25,
NOIDA. 201301
Tele no 01202519440
Mobile 09810541222

Monday, November 16, 2009

Funds for IESM by Maj Gen Satish Chandra

From: Satish Jalota
Sent: Mon, 16 November, 2009 7:02:23 AM
Subject: Funds for IESM

Dear Sir,
Suggested steps to raise funds on regula and long term basis;_

I suggest a contribution of Rs 100/- be started for issue of Membership card.Should total up to a reasonable sum.
Contributions from individuals was good gesture. Such a thing dries up with time.

Political parties have survived ( and flourished) with the help of Industry. Some of the business housed did send their sons for a stint in Army. Some of the leaders of the Nation do wear ranks. Some of the top actors did act as soldiers in the films.Many a sportsmen reached international status because they had joined Services , to start with.
A well drafted appeal should be sent to them. However , an appeal without some idea as to the extent of funds required for IESM activities, will not be affective.
Who should do it ? Those who know the long term plans and those who are at the helm of affairs.

Maj Gen Satish Chandra(Retd)
Ex Technical Adviser Defense(London) and Director National Test Range for Missiles
+91 9810355010

Appeal by Brig Kartar Singh

From: Brig. Kartar Singh []
Sent: None
To: Kamboj Chander;;;;
Subject: All together Heave........ Let us Unite

Dear Veterans,
I, hereby, make my 7th request with special request to Brig. Chandar Kamboj to send it across from his blog as follows:-

Let us resolve not to write,
Anything on emails which is not right,
In letter and sprite, though it might,
Strike you absolutely right......................1

Let us do conserve our Might,
To fight what is not proper and right.
We might play different gadgets in names,
But the song and the tune has to be same....................2

Let us fight those who cause injustice,
Even if they hold high enough office.
We serve the Mother land for Her sake,
As all the Babus and Netas are fake...........................3

Let us work and not leave,
Let us all together heave,
Let us finally resolve on pledge,
Not to show each other a sledge..............................4
Let us all together Heave

Jai Hind
Your Sincerely
Brig Kartar Singh
President RSEL.
background: #FFF;
Brig.(Retd) Kartar Singh
Campus Head

"May all continue to shine and smile."

Views of Lt Gen RK Gaur

From: Lt Gen R K Gaur
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:31 PM
Subject: Secularism in the Services

----- Original Message -----
From: Rk Nagpal

Any one more secular than the army?

As a serving army officer, I never stop marvelling at the gullibility of our countrymen to be provoked with alacrity into virulence in the name of religion. I have never heard the word 'secular' during all my service -- and yet, the simple things that are done simply in the army make it appear like an island of sanity in a sea of hatred.
In the army, each officer identifies with the religion of his troops. In regiments where the soldiers are from more than one religion, the officers -- and indeed all jawans attend the weekly religious prayers of all the faiths. How many times have I trooped out of the battalion mandir and, having worn my shoes, entered the battalion church next door? A few years ago it all became simpler -- mandirs, masjids, gurudwars and churches began to share premises all over the army. It saved us the walk.
Perhaps it is so because the army genuinely believes in two central 'truths' -- oneness of god and victory in operations. Both are so sacred we cannot nitpick and question the basics.
In fact, sometimes the army mixes up the two! On a visit to the holy cave at Amarnath a few years ago I saw a plaque mounted on the side of the hill by a battalion that had once guarded the annual Yatra. It said, 'Best wishes from -....- battalion. Deployed for Operation Amarnath.
On another instance, I remember a commanding officer ordered the battalion maulaviji to conduct the proceedings of Janamashtmi prayers because the panditji had to proceed on leave on compassionate grounds. No eyebrows were raised. It was the most rousing and best-prepared sermon on Lord Krishna I have ever had the pleasure of listening to.
On the Line of Control, a company of Khemkhani Muslim soldiers replaced a Dogra battalion. Over the next few days, the post was shelled heavily by Pakistanis, and there were a few non-fatal casualties.
One day, the junior commissioned officer of the company, Subedar Sarwar Khan walked up to the company commander Major Sharma and said, "Sahib, ever since the Dogras left, the mandir has been shut. Why don't you open it once every evening and do aarti? Why are we displeasing the gods?"
Major Sharma shamefacedly confessed he did not know all the words of the aarti. Subedar Sarwar went away and that night, huddled over the radio set under a weak lantern light, painstakingly took down the words of the aarti from the post of another battalion!
How many of us know that along the entire border with Pakistan, our troops abstain from alcohol and non-vegetarian food on all Thursdays? The reason: It is called the Peer day -- essentially a day of religious significance for the Muslims.
In 1984, after Operation Bluestar there was anguish in the Sikh community over the desecration of the holiest of their shrines. Some of this anger and hurt was visible in the army too.
I remember the first Sikh festival days after the event -- the number of army personnel of every religious denomination that thronged the regimental gurudwara of the nearest Sikh battalion was the largest I had seen. I distinctly remember each officer and soldier who put his forehead to the ground to pay obeisance appeared to linger just a wee bit longer than usual. Was I imagining this? I do not think so. There was that empathy and caring implicit in the quality of the gesture that appeared to say, "You are hurt and we all understand."
We were deployed on the Line of Control those days. Soon after the news of disaffection among a small section of Sikh troops was broadcast on the BBC, Pakistani troops deployed opposite the Sikh battalion yelled across to express their 'solidarity' with the Sikhs.
The Sikh havildar shouted back that the Pakistanis had better not harbour any wrong notions. "If you dare move towards this post, we will mow you down."
Finally, a real -- and true -- gem....
Two boys of a Sikh regiment battalion were overheard discussing this a day before Christmas.
"Why are we having a holiday tomorrow?" asked Sepoy Singh.
"It is Christmas," replied the wiser Naik Singh.
"But what is Christmas?"
"Christmas," replied Naik Singh, with his eyes half shut in reverence and hands in a spontaneous prayer-clasp, "is the guruparb of the Christians."

Views of Lt Col BK Rai

From: Bhanu Kumar Rai []
Sent: 15 November 2009 12:52
To: Kamboj Chander

Lack of recognition of the Armed Forces and veterans in our country is a fact of life. Even in large cities and major establishments, the staff are ignorant of basic things about the Armed Forces. Even educated executives do not know much about ranks in the three services. This is one of the reasons for the prevelent general apathy.
Merely complaing about this will not help.

If some senior retired veterans think of reinforcing the ESM media cell and work out a campaign for a programmed public education initiative on Defence and the importance of the Armed Forces for the stability of our society, it may help in the long run.

The bureaucracy have a vested interest in keeping the Defence forces under their thumb and playing them down. Many of the honorable Members of the Parliament are just apathetic or plainly ignorant. If we cannot think of improving the situation, no one else will.

Can we think of involving some senior and sympathatic scribes like Karan Thapar, Kuldip Nayyar, and BG Verghese and TV editors like Arnab Goswami, Rajdeep Sardesai, Barkha Dutt etc. to guide and help the media cell.

-Veteran BK Rai, Bangalore
(Lt Col BK Rai, 3rd Tech Grad Course IMA, Founder Chairman of UPTRON Group, Former Chairman HCL and 20 other companies, Former Secy to Govt of India)

Views of Col Abel from Uk

From: Parvez Jamasji []
Sent: 15 November 2009 09:10

Subject: Re: [indianveterans] Why are Air Force higher ranks not joining in ?

Hear, Hear !
(Sqn Ldr Parvez R Jamasji, Mumbai)

. . . . .Why the former higher rank ESM from the IAF do not join in with other ESM, is their own misfortune, to choose to be outcastes as such.
Why should anyone be concerned ? There has been a general invitation to join and whoever does not is no great loss to the IESM.
The IESM should not bother with them at all.

Maurice Abel
(Col Maurice Abel, UK)

Why are Air Force higher ranks not joining in ? by Col Rajan

Respected Veterans,
Jai Hind.
It is time to call a Spade a Spade; and let us NOT beat around the bush.
The reason for the AFA not affixing its signature to the letter jointly addressed to the Hon'ble PM by the leading ESM organisations, is not far to seek. By the way, who is the President AFA? It is always the previous Air Chief, who on retirement takes over as President AFA. And who is the present President of AFA? Air Chief Marshal Fali Major who retired recently. And why has the AFA not joined the IESL, IESM & others in signing the letter addressed to the Hon'ble PM regarding Welfare of Ex- Servicemen? What a silly Question to ask ? Even an 8th std pass will tell you why? But why?
Respected Veterans, the previous Chief of Army Staff on retirement has been rewarded with the post of Governor. The previous Chief of Naval Staff has been rewarded with an ambassadorial post. And pray tell me Sirs, why should not the previous Air Chief expect to be rewarded similarly by the Govt.? Why should he burn his boats by signing a silly letter regarding Ex-Servicemen Welfare? Grant the President AFA that much intelligence as to what he ought to do and what he ought not to do; and as to what is good for him !!
Respected Veterans, let us not waste our time thinking of the President AFA and as to why Retired Air Marshals / AVMs of the Air Force have not joined IESM. Respected Veterans, it requires DHAM.
There are thirty Air Marshals here in Bangalore; and, none of them except one, has joined the IESM. And who is that lone exception? It is Veteran Air Marshal Keith Lewis, PVSM, AVSM, VM, an ace fighter Pilot and a soldier venerated by the entire Ex-Servicemen fraternity who is always in the forefront, leading the Crusade at Bangalore. Ex-Servicemen numbering over 300, hailing from Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Andhra & Kerala, who had assembled at Bangalore on 15 March 2009, saluted Veteran Air Marshal Keith Lewis when he stood tall & erect and was the first to deposit his Medals - a PVSM, an AVSM, a Vayu Sena Medal together with thirteen other medals, in full view of the PRESS & TV. Well, that is Leading from the Front, the hallmark of a true soldier. Air Marshal Keith Lewis is one soldier for whom not only I; but the entire Ex-Servicemen fraternity would lay down our lives. Three Cheers to Air Marshal Keith Lewis. May his tribe of Brave Soldiers increase. I am also indebted to AVM Kasinath & AVM (Dr) DK Gupta for their unstinted support.
I would also like share that at Bangalore, the response to IESM from retired Officers of Air Force has been very positive & encouraging; for, a large number of Air Force Veterans always take part in all activities & events org by IESM. And the same goes for the Navy. Rear Admiral Vasanth and Cmde Sam Daniel along with a number of retired Officers of the Navy have always given their unstinted support.
What more can one ask for?

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank & express our gratitude to Lt Gen NSI Narahari, a Bombay Sapper, a Paratrooper, a deep sea diver and a die hard soldier, the likes of whom you do not come across very often, for his encouragement & support to the Movement. It was sometime in 1992 when I was Col ‘Q’ Delhi Area and had the privilege of serving under Maj Gen SC Kashyap, AVSM**, the GOC; and happened to mention Gen Narahari’s name, that, Gen Kashyap paid Gen Narahari a handsome compliment, by saying, “Gen Narahari, the only General with Ba**s”. I am sure all of you would have heard of the Sum Dorong Chu incident when Gen Narahari was the GOC 4 Corps.

Col Rajan
Bangalore, 9448024377

Donation by Cdr Pran Prashar

From: pran parashar []
Sent: 15 November 2009 23:19
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: Re: ESM SITREP 15 NOV 09 - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 775/2009 - 15 NOV 09 (h to Z)

Dear Brig. Kamboj,

Blessings. Wonder where the ESM would have been without U?

I had mentioned in one of my e-mails that i shall donate a further Rs. 5,000/- on receipt of Plan 4 money. It has not materialised as yet. But would next month,. I shall therefore send a cheque for Rs. 5,000.00 to(?).

Lots of love and blessings.

Pran Parashar

Views of Air Cmde S Murugan

: Murugan Subbiah
Date: 2009/11/14
Subject: Supreme court criticises government on its frivolous litigation against Citizens- Relevance to Dhanapalan case.
To: RDOA India , retired officers forum

I saw some legal News today by Hindu Legal Correspondent in Hindu today that may be of interest and use in your legal tussle with the Govt as a follow up to Dhanabalan Case..This is about Supreme court criticism of Govt about its frivolous litigations that clog the wheels of justice. I append below the News Report.
"The Supreme court has expressed concern over the increase of frivolous and unjust litigation by the Central and State Govts thereby clogging the wheels of justice.Statuatory authorities exist to discharge statutory functions in Public Interest.They should be responsible litigants. they cannot raise frivolous and unjust objections nor act in a callous and high handed manner.They cannot behave like some private litigants with profiteering motives. Nor can they resort to unjust enrichment" said a Bench of Justices R.V.Raveendran and G.S.Singhvi.
Writing the Order, Justice Raveendran said" Unwarranted Litigation by Government and Statutory authorities basically stems from two baseless assumptions by their officers- all claims should be viewed as illegal and should be resisted and fought up to the highest court, if taking a decision on an issue could be avoided;then it is prudent not to decide and let the aggrieved party approach the court and secure a decision."
The Bench said"The reluctance to take decisions or the tendency to challenge all orders against them, is not the policy of the Governments or statutory bodies but is attributable to some officers responsible for taking decisions and/or Officer in charge of Litigations. Their reluctance arises from an instinctive tendency to protect themselves against any future accusations of wrong decision making or worse of improper motives for any decision making.
The Bench said" Unless the insecurity and fear is addressed, officers will continue to pass on the responsibility of decision making to courts and tribunals. The Centre is now attempting to deal with this issue by formulating realistic and practical norms for defending cases filed against the government and for filing appeals and revisions against adverse decisions thereby eliminating unnecessary litigation."
The Court said "it is not sufficient that Centre alone undertakes such exercise. The State govts and Statutory bodies who had more litigation than central govt should also make genuine efforts to eliminate litigation.Vexatious and unnecessary litigation has been clogging the wheels of justice for too long,making it difficult for courts and tribunals to provide easy and speedy access to justice to bona fide and needy litigants".
the Bench said "They are expected to show remorse or regret when their Officers act negligently or in an overbearing manner. When glaring wrong acts by the Officers are brought to their notice, for which there is no explanation or excuse, the least that is expected is restitution/restoration to the extent possible, with appropriate compensation". Their harsh attitudes to genuine grievances of the Public and their indulging in unwarranted litigation required to be corrected."
The remarks of Court pertain to a case where Urban Improvement Trust filed an appeal against an Order passed by National Consumer Disputes Redressal commission upholding the Rajasthan commission Direction.
The above remarks of the Supreme Court are particularly relevant because even though an earlier favourable verdict in the Case Dhanapalan existed, the Govt had refused to extend the same benefits to other affected officers of defence Services, thus involving large number of Defence Services in unnecessary litigation. you may like to consult your lawyer.

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Learn to listen. It is an art.
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Dehra Dun IESL ...News ..By Brig KG Behl

From: krishangopal behl []
Sent: 13 November 2009 23:25
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: How to solve 'one rank one pension' tangle

Dear Chander,
You are doing a yeoman service in awakening Ex Servicemen about their rights and how they are being denied their due under one or the other excuse. When we point out the vast variations between the emoluments the Defence and civil, we are told not to compare the two but demand whatever is required for Defence Forces. But when we demand some thing they immediately compare with civilian counterparts and apply that to civil before even letting it applied to Defence. The latest example is the new scale introduced for Lt Generals, which the committee of Secretaries promptly sanctioned for the civilian counterparts. Here the benefit in Defence will go to only 0.01%, who reach that scale, where as it will benefit practically all their counterparts in civil as all reach that scale. Similarly there are many such instances where in the wake of giving benefits to a marginal percentage of Defence Forces more benefits have accrued for civil. Even the cases where the 5th CPC specifically endorsed that those benefits will be given to Defence Forces have been denied. The Rank Pay which 4th CPC granted, over and above the normal Pay, was denied by deducting that from the Basic Pay so that Defence Personnel do no draw more than their civilian counterparts. In the process how much damage has been done probably they did not realize as by reducing basic pay they lowered the status, the scale and denied all the allowances which are worked on that. The 6th CPC who worked on that lower data supplied by MOD granted every thing less to Defence Forces, which Govt. had to revise on protest from different platforms and in the process damaged the very structure of the Defence Forces which affects the command and control. . Though the Finance Minister announced in the Parliament that he is going to redress the long outstanding demand by the Defence services for OROP, what has been recommended in the Cabinet Secretary's Report falls grossly short of ONE RANK ONE PENSION. There is a large gap between pre 1 Jan 06 retirees and post 1 Jan 06 retirees. A pre 1 Jan 06 Sepoy will get only Rs 5461.00 versus Rs 7045.00 by post 1 Jan 06 retiree with 50 percent weightage. In fact, a pre 1 Jan 2006 Hav will be getting less pension than a Jawan, who retires post 1 Jan 2006.

Some thing has to be done to restore the old order. Since it has been done in bits and pieces, without consideration as to how it will affect other parts, it is creating more problems. It will be in fitness of things if the Govt. appoints a Commission, purely of Defence Forces, to look into the complete matter in totality and make recommendations to sort out problems, financial as well as administrative. Since the Defence Forces run on Rank basis alone it is difficult to digest that a senior person should draw less pension than his junior.

There is a tradition in Defence Forces that they respect their seniors and they always draw more Pay/Pension than their juniors. It was being followed till 3rd CPC when all used to retire at the maximum of the scale. The only problem was of 30 years of service required for drawing full pension and weightage given in some categories was not enough, which has now been made up. The 4th CPC brought changes when they introduced Integrated Pay scale for officers who were supposed to reach maximum of the scale at the time of retirement but it was not implemented as formulated and was restricted up to certain ranks alone and the whole purpose was defeated. The 4th CPC introduced Rank Pay which was in addition to the normal pay for peculiar service conditions. But some mischief mongers denied this additional pay too, by deducting equivalent amount from the Basic Pay of all officers without notice so that Defence Officers do not get more pay than their civilian counterparts and lose many other benefits.

Now that sufficient weightage has been given to bring service to 30 years, which actually should have been 33 years . Any how, if we follow 5th CPC recommendations it automatically becomes 33 years as per weightage given by them. If we bring the maximum of Pay scale, as introduced by 3rd CPC with it, it automatically becomes ‘one rank one pension’.

Though all of us are asking for ‘One Rank One Pension’ but no one has suggested any concrete proposals or suggestions as to how to tide over the situation. A committee constituted under the able guidance of Col K.L.Dewan, a well known expert on pension matters, comprising of Brig K.G.Behl and Cdr Sanjiv Dewan has worked out a formula which fits in well for all ranks to work our pension which is exactly as recommended by the 6th CPC in their report which has been accepted by the Govt. It is based on one rank one pension taking into consideration the rank from which the individual retired and the number of years one held that rank. 50% of the present corresponding Pay in the new revised scale/grade becomes pension.

It covers all the doubts expressed by members in their E-Mails and also the point raised otherwise by individuals. If taken in totality the Govt. can manage within the sanctioned budget, keeping in mind the funds they are likely to spend on implementation of pending Court cases. It has to be give and take and sort out this long outstanding problem once for all

A demo can be given to the Defence Minister and his team of officials once they make up their mind that one rank one pension has to be implemented as desired by the President of India in her address to the Parliament on 4th June 2009.

With warm regards,
Brig K.G.Behl veteran
President Dehradun Ex-ServicemanLeague

News from IESM Dehra Dun by Lt Col BM Thapa

From: Brij Thapa
Sent: Fri, 13 November, 2009 11:20:07 PM
Subject: Fwd:


Dear Brig Kamboj,
Many thanks for updating with latest information so regularly. Indeed we all proud of you and your team for such dedicated work inspite many constrains. I am just back from Singapore after two months stay. On arrival here I got opportunity to attend Formation Day Celebration of Uttarakhand on 9th Nov 09 where Governor of Uttarakhand Mrs Margaret Alva addressed the ceremonial parade stating that Uttarakhand is marching forward to become a self reliant, ideal State under vision 2020 as ESM have also played an important role in development of state. Uttarakhand being land of brave soldiers who have from time to time made Uttarakhand proud and maximum soldiers laid down their lives in defence of the country.

On 11th Nov 09 at 4.30 pm, Dr Ramesh Pokhriyal Nishank, Chief Minister of Uttarakhand invited maximum ESM of Doon valley for heavy tea in Bijapur Guest house where he personaly met each and every ESM and stated that he has ordered high level meeting of officers for the welfare of all soldiers. On this occasion Lt Gen H B Kala,Retd expressed pleasure having been given such honour by CM to ESM of State and said that under the leadership of CM State would definetly become a model State and all will support him. Lt Gen M S Gosain, Retd also said that it is a matter of great pride that State celebrating Foundation day and all are proud of it. He expressed that maximum soldiers were from this State who laid their lives in Kargil War. Scan copies of news papers of Himanchl Times and Garhwal Post along with few snaps are enclenclosed here. Function was attended by many senior veterans of Doon Valley eg Ex-Lt Governor of Delhi Air Vice Marshal H L Kapoor,Lt Gen G S Negi,Lt Gen O P Kaushik,Air Marshal G Sen,Lt Gen Anand swarup, Lt Gen V Singhal, Maj Gen S R Bahuguna, Brig A K Bahuguna Director Sainik Kalyan & Punarwas, Brig P K Aggarwal, Brig K G Behl President Dehradun Ex- Services League , Col R P Jairath, Col R K Arya, Col B S Chhetri, Col S S Thapa, Col B D Gambhir and other veterans.

(Lt Col B M Thapa, Retd, Gen Secy, DESL)
(I have received very good photographs of the function and impressive news cutting of the above function held in Dehra Dun. However, due to very large size of each of these photos and news cuttings, I am unable to attache them to this mass email being sent to you.
These photographs news cuttings will be placed on our “Report My Signal - Blog” and on IESM blog.
However, the Moderator of “Report My Signal - Blog” is idisposed for last two weeks and at present unable to perform his duties as moderator. We will put it on the Blog as early as possible - Chander Kamboj)

OROP views of Lt Col Rahul Kumar

From: Rahul Kumar
Sent: Thu, 12 November, 2009 4:36:05 PM
Subject: OROP - A thought

While so much has been said on the OROP, the more I become aware of the "other Govt" est and their regulations the more interesting it becomes!

The civil services (IAS / IPS / IFS and so on) pensioners are already getting OROP. The only difference is that they call it grade pay instead of OROP. Means that the pensioner gets the same grade pension in which he retired as his counterpart gets on date.
MP'S and MLA get pension after just 4 yrs of so called public servant service!
The best part is that they get their pension enhanced to the latest retiree also - again ie OROP.
Judges of all courts get OROP. Again its grade and not rank.
Lately I came to know that the scientists grades as recommended by the 6th PC have been enhanced by organisation by 20%. What for? - well it is considered as prestigious employment!! They also get the pension as per what we call OROP.
Then what is Govt talking about fear of so called "other services" also asking for the same?

What we need to do is:-

Get stats for ALL GOVT SERVICES with regards to pay and allowances, pension rules and actuals.
Can we file an application through RTI to get this info?
Make a comparative statement at various retirement levels - I mean the time in terms of no of years.
Emphasise on the forces service conditions as compared to any other service.
Lobby with MP's in favour of the forces to raise questions in the Parliament and make it difficult for the Govt to get away with it.
Have briefings and discussions on the subject with media at National and State level. Have to keep the media posted and educated on the subject. It is very important as today only that matters - fortunately or unfortunately!
Recommend a common platform for reviewing the renumerations of ALL Govt Servants irrespective of the status and service. The judes, the MP / MLA's the scientists and all should come under one head and no need to have separate bodies to decide on the same.
While continue to build a strong pensioners force to fight collectively with the Govt.

rahul kumar
Lt Col (Retd)

Views of Kanan Jaswal on OROP

From: Kanan Jaswal
To: ss jaswal
Sent: Thu, 12 November, 2009 10:08:18 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: PADINALE Fw: AN OPEN LETTER TO MPs BY IESM - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 767/2009 - 12 NOV 09 (A to G)

Dear Brig. Jaswal,

I am entirely with the IESM in its struggle to get the principle of OROP implemented.

Good luck and best regards,

Kanan Jaswal
(Retired State Bank of India executive)

Views of Cdr Pran Prashar

From: pran parashar []
Sent: 14 November 2009 16:01
To: Kamboj Chander; Satish Kumar Bahri

Dear Brig. Kamboj,


This e-mail is really meant for Gen. Bahri. But I do not know how to reply only to the part of the main e-mail, unless I cut and paste. I somehow do not succeed in that either. So do pl put up wit it.

Dear Gen., Ref your letter to the newspapers. I am glad u have mentioned that u were the Milty Attache in Paris. I believe there is a Naval Attache and an Air force Attache also in Paris. What do the Attache's do? Isn't it their responsibility to advise the Ambassador on such matters also? As usual we blame others. I submit, we in the Services are more to blame of such ills than the Babus!!

To beat my own trumpet, I once established an un official flight time record between UK and Malta in a single seater fighter aircraft. I had been Naval ADC to Earl Mountbatten when he was the Governor General of India. Alan Johnson was the Press Attache at that Period. He had published a book "Mission with Mountbatten". A send off was being given to that book at the same time that my flight event took place. Being almost a member of the family, I had been invited too. The British Media had given my event publicity. Lord Louis at the Function took me by the arm to our H C., Mr. Krishna Menon, who too knew me well. Lord Louis said to him. Krishna have u given a party to Pran?. Then he explained to Mr. Menon why ! Mr. Krishna Menon took me aside and wanted to know why I did not advise him about it? My reply was that he had the Naval Adviser and the Asst. Naval Adviser to do so. Not to mention the Press Adviser!. I was, of course, pulled up by the Asst. Naval Adviser the following day for having met Mr. Krishna Menon. They had not been invited to the send off party.

Aim of my beating personal Trumpet is to High light that the Services Attache are required to do more rather than finding shortfalls in our other representatives.


Pran Parashar
From: Satish Kumar Bahri
To: pran parashar
Sent: Sat, 14 November, 2009 4:55:12 PM
Subject: Homage to our Guardians
Dear Parashar Sir,
Thanks for your mail.
I could not make the letter to the editors too long so I could not explain what all I did in advising the ambassador.

By the time I left I had made the guy in Paris lay a wreath at the Indian War Memorial at Neuve Chapelle, despite his initial objection that Indians do not pay homage to their dead. I had to remind him that we have enough places like Raj Ghat and Gandhi Samadhis all over the country. I also made him and the Ambassador in Brussels host the Commonwealth ambassadors at a function to lay a wreath at the Arch of Triumph and the Grave of the Unknown Soldier at Brussels, which used to come them in alphabetical order.

The empasis of my letter was on the soldiers and not on myself.


Satish (Lt Gen SK Bahri, 1st JSW – 10 IMA Course, residing in New Delhi)
E 403 Som Vihar Apts,
RK Puram

Difference between Bagpipe and a Trumpet by Lr Gen Harwanat Singh

From: harwant singh []
Sent: 14 November 2009 00:39
To: Kamboj Chander

Dear Chander,
Thanks for forwarding Gen Bahri's letter.
Our news papers do not even know the difference between a bagpipe and a trumpet! In Europe, USSR and even in the U.S. there is hardly a family which did not loose a son during the first and Second World Wars. In India it is not so. Politicians, bureaucrats and the rich do not send their children to the defence services.

No other country of India's size etc has remained under foreign occupation for such a long duration. It is this attitude and approach to national security which kept us enslaved for more than a thousand years.

Jai Hind.
(Lt Gen Harwant Singh, Former DCOAS,7TH JSW Course)

Views of Col Shivraj on letter to MP's



Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:44:32 +0530
Subject: Letter to MPs

Dear Gen Kadyan,

I suggest that a group of ESM should take a copy of this letter (open letter sent by Chairman IESM to Hon’ble MPs) to each MP of their constituency.

We can do it in Delhi. My MP is Shri Ajay Maken and Som Vihar also falls in the same. We can coordinate. Similarly, ESM of the other constituencies can work out.


Col Shivraj
210 Munirka Vihar
New Delhi-110067

Friday, November 13, 2009

Veterans Week / Day celebrations

From: []
Sent: 10 November 2009 12:35
To: Kamboj Chander
Subject: Re: EMAILS FROM MEMBERS - "REPORT MY SIGNAL" - EMAIL 761/2009 - 10 NOV09 (A to G)

The great idea of celebrating a Veterans' Week every year, seeds of which have been sown by Col PS Jauhal, is indeed very laudable one. It will give an opportunity for we the Veterans to project ourselves and the masses to understand us and our needs better. With this massive movement under the aegis of IESM gaining momentum, the Babus and the politicians can't remain un oblivious to our problems and our sentiments.
However, a suitable week will have to be selected, which will remain unchanged every year.

Sir, may I request you to invite comments/views of brother Veterans.

Fond regards
Brig Davinder Grewal
From: Brig V A Subramanyam
Sent: Thu, 12 November, 2009 10:09:25 AM
Subject: Thank you from President Obama

Received in another ex-servicemen group.

Am still hoping for the Day when this will happen in Mera Bharath Mahan.

"Like birds, let's leave behind what we don't need to carry..............
Grudges, Sadness, Pain, Fear, and Regrets...Fly Light."
Have a Wonderful Day!
== Subramanyam

Date: Wednesday, 11 November, 2009, 7:18 PM

Today, on Veterans Day, my message to you is simple: Thank you. Thank you for your selfless service, for your valor, and for your strength of purpose that make all of us proud to be Americans.

Today, Americans will pause amidst a great conversation about the future of our nation to take a moment and recognize your service to our democracy -- a service that guarantees us all the liberty to engage freely in that conversation, no matter what our views may be.

We know that we owe you a debt that cannot be repaid. But we can and will fulfill our nation's promise to stand by you and your loved ones. That is why we've worked hard for better care for our veterans, and why we provided the largest increase in Veterans Administration funding in history.

Today, we honor those Americans past and present who've served on battlefields from Lexington to Antietam, Normandy to Manila, Inchon to Khe Sanh, Ramadi to Kandahar. You have defended our freedom on land, and at sea, and in the air.

You reflect the diversity that makes this America. You share a patriotism beyond question. And you share the same unflinching courage, selfless compassion, and uncommon camaraderie that -- when faced with the tragedy of a despicable and heartbreaking attack last Thursday -- the soldiers and civilians of Ft. Hood humbly revealed to the world.

You and your loved ones are the patriotic men and women we honor today, Veterans Day. And you are the men and women we shall honor every day, in times of war and times of peace, so long as our nation endures.

Thank you.

President Barack Obama

From: Hector Poppen []
Sent: 12 November 2009 10:48
To: Kamboj Chander

Dear Brig. Kamboj,

I am appending below a news items that appeared in "Zenith", which is the Catholic Church's daily news bulletin from Rome.

It shows the importance The Church gives to "Soldiers", especially those who have made the supreme sacrifice of their lives. If you consider it worthwhile you may put part of it in"Report my signal" blog.

Best regards

Cdr Hector Poppen (Retd)
Dubai, UAE

25 Comments from Veterans on Maj Navdeep Singh mail on Pension


Harry said...
@ Maj Navdeep


1. Its an EXCELLENT (and practical) idea and needs to be seriously considered. Way to go !!

2. Sorry for digging up old issue
but whats the latest on so-called High Level Committee to sort out Grade pay fiasco? Remember 8000 Grade Pay for Lt Cols was an 'INTERIM' measure till final decision on Grade Pay anomaly was taken? Has everybody forgotten it?
I know public memory is short but surely things concerning ones izzat should not be compromised. Do update us on that if there is any further development.

Thanks !
November 10, 2009 7:56 AM

manav musings said...
Yes sir,
its an excellent suggestion.

But even if the govt thinks to consider it, the ultimate spoiler--- the implementors, i.e. bureaucrats will spoil everything beyond recognition.

I worry this only.
November 10, 2009 8:15 AM

Anonymous said...
The abolishing of weightage is wef 1.1.06. An officer who retired after 20yrs service on 31.12.05 gets a pension of 21028, while an officer who retired on 1.1.06 after 20yrs service gets 25700. Taking 27% DA into account, the difference in pension is around 6000. And all because of one day!
November 10, 2009 8:56 AM

Navdeep Maj Navdeep Singh said...
@Anony 8.56

That problem would also be killed for all times to come by observing such a system. While pensions of post-CPC retirees could continue to be calculated at 50% of last drawn emoluments, the pensions of all pre-CPC retirees could be placed at percentage slabs which would then keep the difference between pre and post-CPC retirees at the barest minimum. It would be de facto OROP which would be acceptable to all sections of retirees with only an added MSP fitment for faujis.
November 10, 2009 9:05 AM

Anonymous said...
Major MRP said....

Dear Major Navdeep,

Your suggestion is not only excellent but practical to solve problems of pensioners for all time and closing litigation and thereby saving millions to the GOI and amount saved can be utilised for welfare schemes and enrgies of pensioners can be utilised in positive manner than to waste their years in agony and harassment in Couts and appeals to the Govt.

Wishing you all the best and pray that such a noval idea can be implemented by benevolent Govt.
November 10, 2009 11:33 AM

vipin said...
i dont think 50% pension has been granted to those with less than 33 yrs of service and retired between 1.1.06 and 1.9.08.
is the matter under consideration.
November 10, 2009 1:43 PM

Navdeep Maj Navdeep Singh said...

The matter has already been considered and accepted in principle by the Committee of Secretaries.
November 10, 2009 1:51 PM

A B Mehta said...
Navdeep has given a very practical suggestion.
The bank staff are so confused, inspite of the govt orders as forwarded by PCDA, that they have paid some Lt Col (eq) 40% of old pension and recalculated on the basis of PB4 from 1106! They have yet to pay full 60% to others.Since there would not be any PPO this is likely to drag on.
In the suggested method PCDA could just indicate rankwise pension before and after the due date for all for PDAs to pay. I presume that this will benefit both the civil and defence staff and thus may not be opposed. Person retiring one day after the date of implementation would in any case get 50% of the last pay drawn.
Gp apt A B Mehta
November 10, 2009 3:18 PM

Prakasa Rao said...
A Very Good suggestion. Hope those who matter in decision making hear and implement it.
November 10, 2009 5:58 PM

bala said...
Any rational,logical and just approach is welcome.
Presently ,existing cut of dates and fixation of pensions has only created so much of disparity and anomalies leading to increased litigation and dishormony in human resources of the NATION .
Even some school children can suggest better ways and methods.
It is sad reflection of governance.
November 10, 2009 11:42 PM

Ajit said...
A good suggestion but I am not at all optimistic if anyone who matters is listeninginterested
November 11, 2009 12:20 AM

Anonymous said...
Quoting Maj Singh : "I would love to hear from our experts on the subject"

Well Major Singh, I don't think there is any better expert on the subject than you. You are just being humble.

Let me tell you, in my 40 years of dealing with the subject both from the Central Govt. side and pensioners' associations side, I am yet to come across a better proposal.

Such implementation would not only meet the requirements of justice but also eliminate litigation and heart-burn. With your permission, I plan to send it to the Finance Ministry and the PM. The people in our Secretariats do not usually want simple systems in place since it threatens their discretionary powers and their power of being a thorn in a bed of roses. That is our undoing because simple procedures means lesser reliance on the govt. and lesser reliance means lesser power to the hordes of desk officers, section officers and under secretaries who put up proposals to the top brass (yes i agree with your previous article on this) who do not have time to apply full mind to such proposals.

Embracing the proposal proposed by you would end all our woes. Let us carry this forward my friend.

November 11, 2009 7:18 AM

Anonymous said...
navdeep sir, the best solution till date from any quarter. Hope to see it through during my service career. If not this time, we should push for this in the next Pay Commission. I would request you to present a formal paper on this if you have the time to do it. thanks once again.
November 11, 2009 7:56 AM

Ramani said...
This cut off date business affects all in every way. a guy born on 31 dec and a guy born on 1 jan. gets different treatment in the mater of employment, collegeschool admissions and so on.
so where do we draw a line.
As far as Navdeep's suggestion goes, it is the most practicable and sensible one that I have come across so far.
However I think the Mandarins in the def(ia)ence ministry will not see it that way.
November 11, 2009 8:13 AM

Anonymous said...

1) A very good practical suggestion,

2) Infact the ideal concept should be ONE GP ONE PENSION (OGOP )which will put to rest, cut off dates, and all other issues.

hope the govt implements the same post haste

November 11, 2009 8:17 AM

Prakasa Rao said...
November 11, 2009 8:35 AM

Col NR Kurup (Retd) said...
There are many such atrocities. For example an officer who has been drawing the highest of his scale of pay continuously for many years and half that pay as pension after 33 years of service is put at the minimum of the scale of pay after every pay commission. Imagine the plight of someone like me who has undergone 3 such pay rivisions after retirement. If not a fixation at the same highest of the slab at least we deserve at least a point to point fixation aqnd not fixation at the lowest.
November 11, 2009 3:08 PM

GaviniVN said...

I had been expecting such a MARVELLOUS solution to the pension woes from your side, and now elated since U did it. In one of my earlier views expressed in this blog, I had mentioned your name (yourself) to be a part of the ARMED FORCES PAY COMMISSION, (IN 2016?) THE GOVT RECENTLY AGREED AND LIKELY TO BE CONSTITUTED WHEN NEEDED, as Member to represent the Pensionlegal issues of the Pensioners. I pray and wish this to COME TRUE BY THE GRACE OF GOD.

Sir, Just Imagine, if such Govt's orders issued, -THE SAVINGS - the MANHOURS of an Army of Govt employees engaged in this work, Let go of the Draftingfinalising policies, reports, orders, recommendations, corrigemdums, clarifications, Saving of postagecourrier charges, Save charges on Telephone Conversationsclarifications, .
Save Tonnes of paper, Energymoney and Spare the administration to do other important work. The Savings on this count could run into tens of thousands of Crores of Rupees, which the Govt can easily foot the Pension Bills to a considerable levels.

This kind of SIMPLIFICATION OF PROCEDURE is a real PANACEA to the GOVT OF INDIA. If ONE such ideasuggestion from EACH MINISTRYDEPARTMENT OF GOVT OF INDIA comes out and applied, then the Savings ploughed back into the govt spending can MAKE OUR NATION A NUMERUNO IN A FLAT 100 YEARS.

November 11, 2009 7:21 PM

Anonymous said...
@ Harry

Para 2
Was it, really?

The one man who could have helped to remind the babus is in the kiwiland.

Only hope is the 18 yrs' rumour. Anything on this?
November 11, 2009 7:27 PM

Anonymous said...

May I know the present status of recommendations on delinking the requirement of 33 years of service for full pension.
November 11, 2009 9:21 PM

pramod said...
ramani @8.13PM

>>>> def(ia)ence ministry....

awesome ;)
November 11, 2009 9:31 PM

Jassi said...
Dear Navdeep,
It is an excellent and innovative idea which can only grow in a brilliant mind.If implemented it save us preparation of so many tables which create more problems than the number of their columns rows giving sleepless nights to those who wo any say in the system.My only worry is whether it will be acceptable to the medicrity that rules the system.
November 12, 2009 8:23 AM

Anonymous said...
From a civilian pensioner point of view, I too think it is a brilliant idea.

We need to place all pre VI CPC retired pensioners into one grade of pension based on a percentage system. The same percentage can then be a determinant of pension of previous retirees after every new pay commission. The pension can still be kept subject to minimum of 50% of the newly implemented scales and everyone with 20 + years of service can be given the same fixed pension on a percentage formula. Our defence brethren can be given an additional step-up based on Military Service Pay, that is, Rs. 3000 per month for commissioned officers and Rs. 1000 per month for Group B and Group C officers (J.C.Os and Jawans). The figures of MSP should ideally be upwardly revised too.

This would kill the need for any fitment pension tables and also kill the need of hankering by various organizations at present and for the future. All defence and civil pensioner organizations including defence, railways, postal, IESM, IESL etc etc should work on this very apt line provided by Maj. Navdeep Singh. The govt. should take notice, this would save the govt. from heartburn amongst pensioners and also complications in pensions and also save money by reducing litigation. Moreover all employees recruited after 2004 are already on contributory new pension scheme.

ONE GRADE ONE PENSION based on % basis is the idea which can be implemented if the govt. takes notice – till date the best idea from any side. Well rounded, equitable and implementable. Thank you for providing food for thought. Sujan
November 12, 2009 5:21 PM

A very good solution to the ailing probs.On the civil side the grades are well defined and implementation would be easier.For the AF, we have to sort out the GP based on length of service with min datum Majs are worst sufferers having put in more than 26 yrs service because of AV singh report and fitment post 6 CPC.Once this is resolved percentage based pensions should be the order of the day.Will cut down lot of anomalies.Good going
November 12, 2009 6:04 PM

BC said...
Dear Maj Navdeep,
The idea of granting pension on % basis is an excellent proposal. Let me tell you the idea has been well taken by the environment. Can this issue be taken up in some official forum, at some appropriate level. Maj Navdeep please guide us in this aspect.
Really, the credit goes to you for this.